Natural Sequences Marrying Image to Number

This might be a good time to stop by the Hermitage and re-read Tom Tadfor Little's wonderful Thoughts on the Ordering of the Trumps.

I agree with his conclusion that the Milanese (TdM) ordering is the original (and best)!

Thanks Melancholic for the suggestion
Where is your sense of adventure?
Nothing wrong with trying to see things another way - 12 from 22 ain't bad odds- it can get boring just looking at Tarot images from only one perspective.
I am always playing around and trying to stretch my brain around different concepts. It's just a numbers game..........
~Rosanne

Rosanne said:

Where is your sense of adventure?
Nothing wrong with trying to see things another way... it can get boring just looking at Tarot images from only one perspective.
I am always playing around and trying to stretch my brain around different concepts.

Click to expand...

Jeez Rosanne! You make me sound like a party pooper!

Perhaps my "Causes and Effects in the Tarot Allegory" diagram will redeem me as being adventurous, and seeing Tarot from another perspective.

Well cripes. I hate to sound dumb, but...I guess I have no choice.

Card 1 is a travelling trickster.

He's trumped by the Papess, who is also a trickster but she's got a big chair to sit in. They belong together insofar as both look good to the ill-informed.

Empress and Emperor belong together; they're better than tricksters but lack moral authority compared with the Pope.

Pope is a virgin which means he's missing something; he's trumped by love.

Love carries us away; to gain control, be a warrior or charioteer.

Etc.

Debra said:

Well cripes. I hate to sound dumb, but...I guess I have no choice.

Card 1 is a travelling trickster.

He's trumped by the Papess, who is also a trickster but she's got a big chair to sit in. They belong together insofar as both look good to the ill-informed.

Empress and Emperor belong together; they're better than tricksters but lack moral authority compared with the Pope.

Pope is a virgin which means he's missing something; he's trumped by love.

Love carries us away; to gain control, be a warrior or charioteer.

Etc.

Click to expand...

That is all quite true Debra and has a card players look about it . I have not explained myself well I guess in this matter. When you draw from a historic deck a pip- lets say 9 of Batons; how do you know that is what it is? Well first it usually has nine Batons on it that you can count- maybe some particular florals that are different- but because of the nine Batons- it is an unmistakable nine- it has a nine-ness about it.
With say the Death card at 13- there is this rightness about it's place- a thirteen-ness (thirteen dancing skeletons would be better). If you had to place it anywhere in a sequence yourself- I am betting you would place it at position 13.This is because in part, that Jesus and 12 apostles makes thirteen and Judas was the thirteenth man. In there are 13 witches in a Coven. This 'unlucky' thirteen goes back to antiquity that everything cosmic was 12 and 13 was eccentric and doomed. In Medieval times the unlucky number was 14- only because Jesus suffered for 14 days - increasing suffering- before his passion. There are 14 stations of the cross- pivotal events on his way to the Crucifixion. Now in some early decks Death is at 14- but it does not stay there- because it displays in a symbolic way it should be at 13. That is what I tried to find out- if any of the cards had within the image a symbolic rightness of place- and the list I gave was, I think,that there is this in 12 out of the 22 cards. There is a one-ness about the Bateleur, and a two-ness about the Empress and so on. Strangely enough these cards were in those positions in some very early decks. Did they then tell a different allegory- or was it not allegory but symbolic numbers and not an allegory at all?
The nearest thing to this is the exploration into the cards showing the Alphabet- which some people really think is true and others are not convinced.
~Rosanne

Before the cards became set in their sequence- there are examples of a very different numbering system as I have mentioned before. Before that they were not numbered at all. Maybe it is worth considering that the cards later became recognised as an allegory, once they had settled in a certain order; or the images lent themselves to be in a certain order to explain in an allegorical way a story. The same thing happened in the 18th Century when they were thought to depict a secret mystery of the Egyptians and moved into the occult phase. The cards may have been each a single representation of something numerical- and then moved into a better fit and order later.

It is an interesting thing about books on symbols. Today in some books on symbols you can look up a number - between 1 and 22 and you will see that the book will tell you that number 17 for example is a Tarot card and means the Star. This is new symbolism and the number 17 does not mean a Star symbolically- but it is now included in number symbolism. Things change, and I guess they did back in the 14th and 15th century also. Some things do not change, but the emphasis is a little different- but the original intent is there.

The best symbol that has evolved from a number to a depiction that I can think of at the moment is the Cross and Skull bones that you see on poison containers and Pirate ships.
Originally this was four bones and a skull- 5 meaning Man and the two thigh bones and two shin bones were like upside down V shapes crossed. They were on Cemeteries or catacombs or caves and was the shape of a man's bones as it was placed in an ossuary container or pottery jar for burial. The five bones was a sign for a mortuary meaning Mans Death. It lost it's five-ness and became three bones- which the Templars for one used on their Hostels and Hospitals. This was a friendly sign for Knights Templar. Early pirates dating back to the Crusades would thus fly the skull and bones imagery on their own mast to trick other ships into thinking they were friendly. It still has the connotation of Death to Man- but no longer has a five-ness about it and if the skull and crossbones was a Tarot image- I guess one put it at 13.
~Rosanne

Melanchollic said:

This might be a good time to stop by the Hermitage and re-read Tom Tadfor Little's wonderful Thoughts on the Ordering of the Trumps.

I agree with his conclusion that the Milanese (TdM) ordering is the original (and best)!

Click to expand...

Here, Little argues that the placement of the virtues is directly connected to keeping Death at the 13 spot.


Considering the eschatological nature of the trump cycle, the choice of 22 images may have been influenced by the number of chapters in Revelations.

And of course, it is Revelations, Chapter 21 that gives us what is most likely, by some accounts, to be the source of the image on card 21.

Rosanne - Did you ever wave a red scarf to a bullock?

I've been following this conversation with great interest. I've been doing a bit of work in this area. I know you've seen the results.

I do know that to anyone looking for the "unique answer" or "historically correct answer" won't take me seriously.

Here's what MacGregor Mathers said:

I stumbled on the following written by MacGregor Mathers. It can also be found in The Encyclopaedia of Tarot, Vol. I:

"The human will (I - The Magician), enlightened by science (II The High Priestess) and manifested by action (III The Empress), should find it's realization (IIII The Emperor) in deeds of mercy and beneficence (V The Hierophant).

Wise disposition (VI The Lovers) will bring victory (VII The Chariot) through equilibrium (VIII Justice) and prudence (VIIII The Hermit) over the fluctuations of fortune (X The Wheel of Fortune).

Fortitude (XI Strength), sanctified by sacrifice of one's self (XII The Hanged Man), will triumph over disaster (XIII Death), and thus a wise combination (XIIII Temperance), enables one to defy fate (XV The Devil).

In each misfortune (XVI The Tower) there is always the star of hope (XVII The Star) shining through the twilight of deception (XVIII The Moon) to ultimate happiness (XVIIII The Sun) in the final result (XX Judgement).

On the other hand, folly (The Fool) will bring about an evil reward (XXI The World)."

I think this goes some way to matching the numbers in teens to image.

Melanchollic said:

Considering the eschatological nature of the trump cycle, the choice of 22 images may have been influenced by the number of chapters in Revelations.

And of course, it is Revelations, Chapter 21 that gives us what is most likely, by some accounts, to be the source of the image on card 21.

Click to expand...

The link is a great one !
I reckon the quote from Revelations (Which I still think of as the Apocalypse)
is the reason for the early World cards- like the Visconti (like the Tarocchi Sheets page 273 Vol 11 Kaplan) and maybe Judgement Card. Not in the Marseilles images though. This goes in part to what I mean. Early decks with strange numbering (or no numbering) to what is now accepted, indicate that (at least to me) maybe the cards were individual images- not part of a linked series (allegory) and those images maybe numerical in concept. I would have thought that if one card like 21 the World was clearly from the Book of Revelations, and of course understood at the time- why is not the Number 7 card from there as well. The symbolism of 7 in the Revelations is a repeating motif. So one card comes from this understood symbolism- is that not an individual number symbolism for a card?

It is like the cards were Italian and explained one thing (Maybe Numbers- maybe Astrological- maybe social hierarchy and ones obligations:Visconti ) and then went to France and became a new understanding. Which is like the great diagrams the Melanchollic scanned.
~Rosanne

Major Tom said:

I've been following this conversation with great interest. I've been doing a bit of work in this area. I know you've seen the results

Click to expand...

A a great result it is!!

I do know that to anyone looking for the "unique answer" or "historically correct answer" won't take me seriously.

Click to expand...

I hate statements like this, or ones that say the person is dumb.
There is nothing new under the Sun was drummed into me as a kid- it kills creativity for a start.(Unique) Historically correct- one might say that the Golden Dawn has a History, or Mathers is an historic figure.
I like the linking sentence that Mathers wrote- but if anybody was to consider it for early cards and numbers and positions in the sequence; would you Tom, be able to tell me why, say, Card 2 The Papesse would indicate either 'Science' or the Number 2? It does not seem to have an historical association to numbers like the Book of Revelations Chapter 21 or Card 13 to Death-There is no Two-ness in the image itself- like there is one-ness in the Bateleur/Magician?
Thanks for scanning what Mathers had to say.
~Rosanne