I Trionfi origins?

Well
... interesting to observe, that the theme still lives.

Is the "Carmina Burana" generally known, a work of Carl Orff? It's one of three pieces, which belong to a Trilogie, and the whole is also called "Trionfi". It was written before, in and after WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmina_Burana

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trionfi_(Carl_Orff)

The music (Carmina Burana) is phantastic and a movie was made to it, very brilliant at its time.

Oh yes, I think I can say that Carmin Burana is one of the most recognizable pieces of music, even in the UK. Granted, not everyone knows it's name or who composed it - but I think everyone would know it.

Over here, it might be best known for being used (along with some Wagner - Sigfreid's funeral music, another great) in the Arthurian film Excaliber.

Orff's settings of the "Carmina Burana" were probably my first loves in "classical" music. I get goosebumps when I hear "O Fortuna", particularly the opening to the second one - the way the soprano of "Dulcissime" leads into the blast of "Blanziflor et Helena", and then the reprise of the ever-turning Wheel of Fortune.

The most famous and popular version of it is that conducted by Eugen Jochum, released in 1968 on Deutsche Grammophon. Apparently Orff himself praised it. I just listened to it again, and got shivers and tears. Something in it goes to the root of me.

I never warmed up to the rest of Orff's Trionfi compositions, although I try to every few years.

In the musical world, this is a hate it or love it thing. Often a dislike of it is based on its associations with the Nazi era in Germany. I do wish that a recording of the original performance (1936?) survived.

Ross

I could imagine, that the Carmina were inspired by Olympia in Berlin 1936 (indeed Orff got a public commission to compose a "Kinderreigen" - dance for children - for that occasion)

The troublesome character of the Nazi regime was then surely less obvious to everybody than later.

Generally it seems, that the Nazi-Regime wasn't very happy about this sort of music (Carmina Burana) after the first presentation:

A reception from 2007: "Die seriöse Musikkritik und –geschichtsschreibung hielt meist Distanz: die absichtsvolle Simplizität der Partitur stand quer zu allem, was im Entstehungsjahr 1937, in welchen fortschrittlichen oder reaktionären Lagern auch immer, als musikalischer Zeitstil gehandelt wurde. Igor Strawinsky etwa, der mit einigem Recht seine „Noces“ von 1923 als ein mögliches Vorbild identifizierte, sprach sarkastisch von „neo-neandertalscher Schule“.
Schwerer wog der Vorwurf, Orff habe sich mit „Carmina burana“ den Nationalsozialisten angedient, habe gar faschistische Musik geschrieben. Das allerdings ist eine grobe Vereinfachung komplizierterer Sachverhalte: Orff, in der Terminologie der Nazis übrigens „Vierteljude“, war kein Parteigenosse, aber auch – wie so viele – kein Widerstandskämpfer, wiewohl er sich zum Zwecke schnellerer Entnazifizierung unredlicherweise in die Nähe der Widerstandsgruppe „Weiße Rose“ manipulierte.
Die „Carmina burana“ bedienten allerdings so wenig die Klischees vom artgerecht-tiefsinnigen teutonischen Musizieren, dass die Kritiken nach der Frankfurter Uraufführung am 8. Juni 1937 – heute vor 70 Jahren - sie in gefährliche Nähe zu „entarteter Kunst“ rückten. Angesichts der Elementar-Rhythmik des Stücks sprachen die braunen Bieder- und Saubermänner von Reichsmusikammer und gleichgeschaltetem Schrifttum von „bayerischer Niggermusik“, deklarierten die Erotik des 12. Jahrhunderts zu „Pornographie“ und erkannten das vorherrschende, pfiffige Mönchslatein natürlich als „undeutsch“. "

It seems, that in 1937 everybody was surprized this music and many of the installed public Nazi educators for "clean art" (in this case "Reichsmusikkammer") reacted negative on it.

Huck said:

Petrarca was inspired by Cola de Rienzo, knew him personally (? at least by private letter exchange).
Cola de Rienzo tried to reestablish "Rome" and somehow the old Rome with some of the older "triumphal habits" (all on the background, that the popes were in Avignon). This happened short before the plague 1448 - 1450 and it went bad for Rienzo.
Rienzo is clearly the political background for "I Trionfi" of Petrarca. You surely find material in the web to this person.

Click to expand...

Kewl- so this was the source for the Classical revival period, then?

Huck said:

It's a question, to which degree the old Roman customs were known ...

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knowledge of ancient history any time before the 20th century was questionable at best, and quite full of wishful thinking. Factors that didn't fit preconceptions were ignored and some times even archaeological evidence was altered.

(and, yeah, it still happens now, but perhaps t a lesser extent, or at least not as obviously)

Huck said:

Generally there were Trionfos since the Roman times in Byzanz, how regularely is not known. A military victory usually caused a celebration ... but is that already a Trionfo?

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Should fit the parade/chariots pattern at least somewhat to qualify.

Huck said:

The especially for Tarot interest important feature is the use of "allegories" in the triumphal marches, but not each festivity in the focussed time used this feature.

Click to expand...

There's the main area of my interest for this topic- where did these allegories come from, I'd like to know.

Huck said:

Generally the celebrations didn't stop to present only the "Trionfo"-model, generally the motivation wished to have a great show and best not only one demonstration, but as many as possible, as long there was enough money to pay for it. So there were jousts, animal fights, literary shows, theatre AND a triumphal march just for one event. And this event could take 2 weeks or - especially in the case of bride journeys - even monthes.
Theatre and finally also opera developed from this interest in amusement and public show, often combined with carnival. The "first opera" actually was a "carnival show".

Click to expand...

Hm? Details, please?


Dua Mayet,
Tzeenj

Huck said:

I trionfi del Petrarca ... modern version

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=TwQ43yEzplQ

Click to expand...

Grrr...couldn't get it to work...

Huck said:

Well
... interesting to observe, that the theme still lives.

Is the "Carmina Burana" generally known, a work of Carl Orff?

Click to expand...

Orff based it on older manuscripts. Corvus Corax recently did their own version, independent of Orff's, starting from the same manuscripts. Theirs naturally has some similarities but is definitely not just a remake of Orff's.

Sa Sekhem Sahu,
Tzeenj

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck
Petrarca was inspired by Cola de Rienzo, knew him personally (? at least by private letter exchange).
Cola de Rienzo tried to reestablish "Rome" and somehow the old Rome with some of the older "triumphal habits" (all on the background, that the popes were in Avignon). This happened short before the plague 1448 - 1450 and it went bad for Rienzo.
Rienzo is clearly the political background for "I Trionfi" of Petrarca. You surely find material in the web to this person.


Kewl- so this was the source for the Classical revival period, then?

### The Italian political interest to get the papacy back to Italy was surely given before.
In the global European development the French king hadn't been of great importance in France itself for a long time. This changed in the course of 12th/13th century. The weak state of the German Empire after Fredrick II (died 1250) and the following Interregnum and German kings, which were dependent from their Kurfürsten shifted the European focus to the French development. Philipp (1270 - 1314) reached a climax of French power and in the course of this development the papacy went to Avignon - leaving Italian hopes and interests behind.
But all 3 sons of Philipp died soon as kings, and also soon the difficulties of the English-French wars brought the French height of 13th century down ...

... and there was general an European population decrease cause of some years of hunger (early 14th century), some decades later followed by a dramatic population decrease by the black death. It's said, that this general bad population development with many local plagues beside the big one of 1348-50 recovered as late as ca. 1450.
Inside this general "bad development" we can focus on Petrarca and his attempt to awake his home country to old splendour ... and how he naturally can't change very much. But Petrarca is remembered as a light in the darkness in the time, when matters turned to some favor in the development 1440-1450 (naturally the later years were better for Italy, but it seems, that some optimism returned with 1441 ... wars stopped between Milan/Venice, and the Naples question was decided (1442) and Eugen found diplomatic victories against his adversaries. The prospects started to look better, although the wars returned for some years. ###


Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck
It's a question, to which degree the old Roman customs were known ...

knowledge of ancient history any time before the 20th century was questionable at best, and quite full of wishful thinking. Factors that didn't fit preconceptions were ignored and some times even archaeological evidence was altered.



(and, yeah, it still happens now, but perhaps t a lesser extent, or at least not as obviously)

### Well, as already said, in Trionfi questions of the time one should observe Biondi ... why is it necessary, that he writes his text? It would be nice to read it in translated form.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck
The especially for Tarot interest important feature is the use of "allegories" in the triumphal marches, but not each festivity in the focussed time used this feature.


There's the main area of my interest for this topic- where did these allegories come from, I'd like to know.

**** Alain de Lille, Roman de la Roses ... the love for allegories developed. None of the allegoric concepts in Tarot was really new. ... and the development of allegories didn't stop and developed further after Tarot found its form.
So there are many single problems with each of the motifs. And each was variated, repeated over and over again - and somehow it still goes on.

Modern equivalents might be the marks of enterprizes ... , although this seems to be more a heraldic matter. The statue of freedom for America somehow meets the character of an allegory. Actually the function of the allegories were to honour a sponsor ... and the money for the contributing artist. And to some part it meant the education of the mind of the common people, expressing philosophic ideas in a pictorial manner, "advertising" the superior spirit of those people, who had money and influence at their time.

Actually are behind these "highstanding allegories" trivial and practical interest. Just as shop owner needs some interesting decoration to attract customers.

****

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck
Generally the celebrations didn't stop to present only the "Trionfo"-model, generally the motivation wished to have a great show and best not only one demonstration, but as many as possible, as long there was enough money to pay for it. So there were jousts, animal fights, literary shows, theatre AND a triumphal march just for one event. And this event could take 2 weeks or - especially in the case of bride journeys - even monthes.
Theatre and finally also opera developed from this interest in amusement and public show, often combined with carnival. The "first opera" actually was a "carnival show".


Hm? Details, please?


**** Details? You have to study the events, as far they are available. For instance the marriage of Lucrezia Borgia with Alfonso d'Este. It took a few weeks, many smaller and greater events at many locations, finishing with a series of theatre shows, for which Ferrara was famous at this time. The description luckily has survived with many details.
It was discussed last winter here and SOMEWHERE is the link ... perhaps Google or the Aeclectic search helps. I don't have it in the moment.
****

I think the best summary is that all these ideas were floating around in "popular" culture at the time and were expressed in different ways. Tarot has somehow survived, while other mutually influential expressions of the Triumph meme did not.

I mean the silent film Nosferatu didn't directly inspire Buffy the Vampire Slayer on TV, but they are both expressions of the vampire meme that has been floating around for the last century. And of course we all know that the story of Nosferatu is waaaay in the background of Buffy's meaning: it is framing information so to speak.

We are, with Tarot, in the analogical position of being left with all 7 seasons of Buffy in our hands, but having lost Nosferatu, the 1931 Dracula, Dark Shadows, the Lost Boys, the original Buffy movie, the Ann Rice books, and having only a vague outline of Bram Stoker's text.

How to get from this vague idea of Stoker to Buffy? It would seem just as mysterious to us as Tarot does now.

As for Orff, I am literally named after that piece of music.