Drawing conclusion in horary

Hi Mindermiz,

Hope you're doing well! I have 2 questions about drawing conclusions for horary, could you please help me out?

1. If we ask questions such as whether two people will separate or go on bad terms and got an applying aspect between the 2 main sigs, does that give a Yes to the question? My understanding was that any applying aspects means that something will happen between the two parties, but the nature of the aspect will determine how the actual process of that event will be. So if we got an trine or sextile for this type question, it means that the separation will happen fairly quick and easy. But I found some astrologers look at he nature of the aspect to draw conclusions for questions like this. For instance, they would think that a trine or sextile between main sigs implies that two parties will reconcile and thus no separation will happen and vice versa. What's your thoughts on this?

2. The other question would be how to read 12th house correctly in a horary chart. 12th house is commonly known as house of sorrow and self undoing. But I wonder if it still has the same meaning when is not badly afflicted. For instance, if the quesited has his ascendant lord (in this case, Sun) along with Jupiter, Venus and Mercury in his 12th (In this case we have Jupiter, Sun and Mercury all in Leo and Venus in cancer). Since Sun in Leo is quite strong, would it make sense if we conclude that the questied has a big ego but doesn't know how to express himself well due to combust Mercury(Mercury is within 2.5 degrees of Sun here). Or, the quesited has hidden feelings for the querent, represent by the co-sig of Venus but then try to hide those feelings? Since none of these planets are in detriment or fall in the 12th, I wouldn't think that the quesited is suffering internally but just keeping himself and his feelings away from the public or the querent...would you agree with that?

kittymumu said:

Hi Mindermiz,

Hope you're doing well! I have 2 questions about drawing conclusions for horary, could you please help me out?

1. If we ask questions such as whether two people will separate or go on bad terms and got an applying aspect between the 2 main sigs, does that give a Yes to the question? My understanding was that any applying aspects means that something will happen between the two parties, but the nature of the aspect will determine how the actual process of that event will be. So if we got an trine or sextile for this type question, it means that the separation will happen fairly quick and easy. But I found some astrologers look at he nature of the aspect to draw conclusions for questions like this. For instance, they would think that a trine or sextile between main sigs implies that two parties will reconcile and thus no separation will happen and vice versa. What's your thoughts on this?

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Hi, at the moment I'm on holiday so I can only give a rough response to your question. Much depends not only on the nature of the question but the status quo at the time the question was asked. if there are current circumstances which suggest a break up is more than possible then you'd approach the question differently than if the question was 'idle speculation'. In the event of idle speculation or no evidence suggesting that a breakup will occur, your default answer to the question is 'No' and you'd want to see pretty compelling evidence that a breakup is coming, before you answered 'Yes'. An applying aspect of itself would not be sufficient evidence. Significators badly placed by house, and with considerable accidental debility would be needed, together with essential debility as well. In short nothing will look right.

If there is evidence that a break up is more than possible then you might relax those conditions a little but you would still have a default of 'No' unless their constant arguing made you incline to take the view that they are likely to.

In other words you can't ignore reality. Horaries that are based on idle speculation mainly fail.

kittymumu said:

2. The other question would be how to read 12th house correctly in a horary chart. 12th house is commonly known as house of sorrow and self undoing. But I wonder if it still has the same meaning when is not badly afflicted. For instance, if the quesited has his ascendant lord (in this case, Sun) along with Jupiter, Venus and Mercury in his 12th (In this case we have Jupiter, Sun and Mercury all in Leo and Venus in cancer). Since Sun in Leo is quite strong, would it make sense if we conclude that the questied has a big ego but doesn't know how to express himself well due to combust Mercury(Mercury is within 2.5 degrees of Sun here). Or, the quesited has hidden feelings for the querent, represent by the co-sig of Venus but then try to hide those feelings? Since none of these planets are in detriment or fall in the 12th, I wouldn't think that the quesited is suffering internally but just keeping himself and his feelings away from the public or the querent...would you agree with that?

Click to expand...

House meanings have changed and grown since the early days of Horoscopic Astrology, so it's difficult to give a 'right' answer to this. I try to keep in the spirit of the tradition but even that has significant additions and developments.

The first thing to remember is that the house system in regular use since the second century AD (itself the product of preceding developments and changes) was based on whole sign houses. Thus in the example you give the Sun in Leo would be treated as first house, even though that part of Leo had already risen. Indeed the First house as a bridge between heaven and earth was seen as important and one of the reasons why Mercury is said to joy in the first house, as Mercury can be either diurnal or nocturnal as a planet.

The first horary Astrologers used that system. So with Leo on the Ascendant, the twelfth house would be Cancer. The newly risen Sun is first house, even if it's at the very start of the Sign and the Ascendant in 29 degrees.

The meanings of the twelfth are derived from several factors. In brief these are that it is a cadent house (or declining from the Ascendant) and it makes no major aspect to the Ascending sign. In modern terminology it is inconjunct, it traditional terms it is Averse.

These two features of being cadent and averse contribute to it being seen as the worst placement (followed by the sixth, then the eighth and finally the second of the 'bad' houses'). Hellenistic Astrologers extended this to include , enemies, slaves, and travel. As its the declining house from the Ascendant, which signifies the 'Me' or the 'Querent', so you can see why being your own enemy should become one of it's meanings. All cadent houses signify travel in the early system but as 'bad' houses the twelfth and the sixth signify things that go very wrong through travel, whereas the ninth which is also cadent does trine the Ascendant and thus signifies good things through travel. It's not to difficult to look at 'bad' travel as trips to the hospital or to jail or some other place associated with bad experiences or bad reasons for travel.

The idea of 'hidden' comes from aversion, as there is no major aspect, what is happening cannot be 'seen', as aspects involve 'seeing' or in the old terminology 'beholding' One might argue that the identification with the subconscious in modern Astrology is a legitimate extension of the 'hidden' meaning, assuming you're more Freudian in your approach.

The twelfth though is not a good place and is not supposed to be good. With four bad places that are averse to the Ascendant and eight 'good' places that aspect the Ascendant, the old belief that Traditional Astrology is pessimistic is a bit out of joint. But 'good' and 'bad' things do happen and it's well that these are clearly reflected in the schema. Those 'bad' things may be moderated by other factos, such as aspects from benefics, being direct and free from the Sun, etc. Similarly 'good' things can be moderated by being afflicted by malefics, retrograde, under the beams, etc. There are gradations for both.

So the twelfth may be 'essentially' a 'bad' place but a planet in there is not in a hopeless situation if it has plenty of accidental and essential dignity.

Thanks for that comprehensive answer Minderwiz. It gave me lot of food for thoughts, truly appreciate it

Also on horary

I did not know if to open a new thread, please move the post if appropriate. The question is also about horary and aspects and relationship.

My question was more open: Where is this relationship heading?

My problem is that when I looked at the chart, the 2 significators formed a trine at the very moment of question. There is no aspect to look forward to perfect, it is already there, under the question, just some minutes apart.
How can be this interpreted? That the relationship is already done on its highest potential and there is nothing more?
I dont know if it is correct how I interpret, it is most a conclusion I drew coming from reality to the sky, but after the time of question, indeed, the the relation seemed all consumed, with nothing more to develop. First, before the reality check, I interpreted as a stable and harmonizing relationship due to the almost perfect trine.