Justice : Its original Placement

Parzival

Justice:Its Original Placement

Huck said:
For most games of Tarot the iconography of the chosen motifs is totally meaningless. Structurally it is necessary, that the cards have a hierarchical row. If you use animals as in the Animal Tarot, buildings or social events as in some of the 19th century deck, it doesn't matter....

The iconography itself as a complex artwork might be overcrowded with symbolic meaning, whatever the artist did like and the commissioner wanted, but it not naturally tells us anything about the really played game.
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Yes, the symbols are irrelevant to the game--thus, animals in sequence are equal to Platonic virtues, death, devil, sun, world, etc, in sequence. The iconography "does not tell us anything about the game." And yet the iconography is still there, with the game, whether the originators wish to see it or see through it to the game. That is why in 1527 Teofilo Folengo could write a sonnet in Italian with all the trumps symbolically incorporated. It's an interesting mix-- game and symbol-- to consider.
 

Huck

diagVersicoleC.JPG


Rules can be complicated in Italian games

http://germini.altervista.org/

It's not easy to decipher, why cards 1, 2-5, 10, 13, 20, 28, 30-35, 36-40 have special value in this Minchiate version.
 

Rosanne

A Versicola is a combination of cards that has a special value or the same value.
When you read through that it sounds like Minchiate is somewhat like Chinese games like MahJong. It also shows the Throned ones of the Tarot
Thanks for the site....Good Italian practice for me.

~Rosanne
 

Huck

Rosanne said:
A Versicola is a combination of cards that has a special value or the same value.
When you read through that it sounds like Minchiate is somewhat like Chinese games like MahJong. It also shows the Throned ones of the Tarot
Thanks for the site....Good Italian practice for me.

~Rosanne

Yes, of course, it are combinations, similar to Mahjong, Canasta and Romme.

But the question is, which sort of game philosophy makes just these groups and numbers interesting. What's the intellectual reason for this choice ... and was it possibly caused by iconographic ideas or had the number choice an influence back on the iconographic presentation?

Mahjong, Canasta and Romme behave more of less logical in regard to high valued combination.That's not so easy with the Minchiate forms.

Well, it's not a question for the position of Justice ... so see ...

http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=2379854#post2379854

which will develop
 

Rosanne

For Frank Hall:
One should not leap to the conclusion that the earlier sources represent something more like the original order of the trumps. All the sources date from 50 to 150 years after the invention of the game. It is likely that each reflects an ordering that had become established in some locale or circle of players by the mid-15th century.

http://tarothermit.com/ordering2.htm

In the eastern tradition, the problem was solved by placing Justice above Death, next to the Angel of Judgement. This is symbolically appropriate, Justice now representing archangel Michael dispensing Justice on Judgement Day.

~Rosanne
 

Parzival

Justice: Its Original Placement

Interesting to see Justice as Michael "dispensing Justice on the Judgment Day", thus its 20th position, penultimate before World. On the other hand, Justice is a Platonic and Neoplatonic virtue of great significance, a prerequisite to harmony in self and society or World. In the world of Christian and Neoplatonic Renaissance Italy, when Justice had more than a singular theological meaning, the one-two of Justice and World as the grand finale of the whole Tarot sequence could be metaphorical in more than one way. Obviously, if it's only a non-iconic game, this is a dramatically iconic closure, with Michael/Justice making its next-to-last appearance.

Ficino: "O Justice, Queen of the World.... Justice that is blissful life! Justice that is heavenly life!" (See his "On Law and Justice.")