The Star card

Aeon418 said:

Yes, but the Golden Dawn made those attributions according to their system.

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Heh = Aries according to the SY and
Tzaddi = Aquarius according to the SY, with no variation as with the planet and double letters.

GD changed Justice/Fortitude to coincide with the astrological attributions of teth/lamed = leo/libra. Crowley's justifation for the switch is because of the parallel switch on the moebius ribbon - but the symbolism of the cards doesn't match with what he says. Aries/he is still symbolised in his hierophant card, thus whatever he says, the symbolism of the actual cards matches with Heh, not Tzaddi.

Kwaw

Sorry, I forgot that ancient tradition is infallible and should not be questioned or changed even when it makes a mess of the Tarot. lol

Aeon418 said:

Sorry, I forgot that ancient tradition is infallible and should not be questioned or changed even when it makes a mess of the Tarot. lol

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(See! I told you you were cute!)

Seriously though, ancient tradition should be questioned. But if you want to change it then yer gonna haf ta prove it buddy, not just make the statement. Hey, look at the trouble you give me with the "Thoth, Tree..." thread.

Dulcimer said:

Hey, look at the trouble you give me with the "Thoth, Tree..." thread.

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Trouble! I prefer the word provocative.

You want me to prove it eh? I just point to The Book of Thoth. In return you brandish your copy of the Sepher Yetzirah in a menacing fashion and scream "Heretic!!!"

kwaw said:

Aries/he is still symbolised in his hierophant card, thus whatever he says, the symbolism of the actual cards matches with Heh, not Tzaddi.
Kwaw

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I'm just wondering whether you meant to say "Aries/he is still symbolised in his EMPEROR card..." ????????

If you're suggesting that the Hierophant has joined into the menage a-quattro then you are really throwing an onion into the ointment....

But you make a good point - thanks for making it. It doesn't matter what Crowley says - the card's symbolism shows the traditional aries/he stuff. Not to forget to mention the light shining from the top-right corner, ie the light from Chokmah that shines onto Tiphareth!!!

And 'heh' as opening originally meant the flap on a tent I read somewhere - they didn't have windows in those days I guess.....

And if I can further quote some your work, Kwaw:

"Among other meanings the letter Teth means 'serpent' and is related thereby to the serpent in the Garden of Eden and is said to symbolise the power of judgement. However, as well as the Satanic serpent there is also the Holy Serpent, identified with the Messiah [Messiah and Serpent in Hebrew both have the same numerical value by Gematria]; and is a symbol of both good and evil, of knowledge and falsehood, and the power to Judge between the two.

Among the Ophites ['worshippers of the snake, a Jewish syncretic movement with Gnostic tendencies] the serpent was called 'Michael and Samael', reflecting the dual nature of the symbolism of the serpent. Michael and Samael are two angels of Judgement, advocate and adversary respectively in the court of the Holy King. Leo, ruled by the Sun the significator of royalty, is a symbol of the royal court of Judgement [the House of the Sun]. As Teth means serpent, the symbol for Leo is also said to represent a serpent, possibly a derivation of the royal Uraeus crown of the Pharoes.

Micheal in medieval iconography is portrayed frequently with sword and scales, and fits therefore very well with imagery of the Justice card. Samael in early traditions is called a 'blind angel' [SMY means 'blind' in Hebrew], though in later texts, such as the Zohar, he is merely described as 'cross-eyed'. Possibly this is related to the occasional image of Justice as being blind folded?"

I myself have been tinkering with the Teth=Justice idea. Leo, whilst confident, is not yet fully socially developed. He still needs the attention and acknowledgement of others. Leo is self-assured only if there is someone to recognise this. Thus the concept of RELATIONSHIP, and the dual-ness of the symbol of the scales is appropriate. The idea of the learning of CONSEQUENCES is tied in with this stage of development. Only later (in 2 cards time, or 2 signs/houses away) does the Fool overcome this,by dealing with his Shadow and appropriately deal with relationships on a one-to-one basis (Lamed, Libra, Strength).

What I also find interesting in all of this is that the 4 cards involved:
EMPEROR - ADJUSTMENT - LUST - STAR
astrologically deal with:
ARIES(emperor) - LIBRA(adjustment)
LEO(lust) - AQUARIUS(star)
or: the axis of the Ascendent/Descendent (Houses 1 & 7);
and the axis of Houses 5 & 11

Or am I just reading too much into it again...?

Windhorse said:

I was wondering whether this thread and the other XVIII Star-based thread could become the foundations/beginnings of the Study group thread on this card?!

Between the two htreads, we have quite a lively and in-depth discussion.

What does everyone else think?

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Windhorse dude! The "Thoth, Tree..." thread is not about The Star, although it is becoming that way.

I started that thread to put across what I believe to be evidence that the Tarot majors - in particular the Thoth - were drawn to be seen on the sephiroth as well as the paths.
Originally The Star part of that debate was about its possible position in Daath instead of Chesed, i.e. can it swap places with The Empress instead of The Emperor. It is a highly speculative theory I know. So debating the Star/Emperor swap, which, though it may develop from it, is not what that thread is really about.

Discussions about the The Star itself, and the whole Star/Emperor thing, has a better home here.

archer1 said:

On the card itself is a symbol opposite the Lamed a line that looks like a representation of water but Crowley's book of Thoth shows what looks like a rams head ...which is the typo....?????????????

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Still with us Archer1? All that clear now?
Now I finally understand why some people go ;
"The CROWLEY Tarot ? I wouldnt be mucking around with that."

I am still wanting to get back to the basics with this issue. Please excuse my ignorance of Traditional Qabalah. And my current focus on tradition.

Its all going to get a bit murky if all the latter correspondences to the Hebrew letters were added by Hermetic Qabalists. I know the letters have an order and that is confirmed by a value that progressivly rises. This is traditional. (lets leave the Tree of Life out of it for the moment)
Are astrological values and attributions traditional?
I know there are 3 mother letters, is their attrubiton to the air, water, fire, traditonal?

{The reason I ask is, if the elements signs and planets have some previous association to Hebrew letters, then when letters are switched, their attributions would go with them (as in 'confused' or 'wrong' chart in 777) .
If astro. attributions were added later to the letters, then the attribution system would seem to be more flexible.}

Windhorse said:

And 'heh' as opening originally meant the flap on a tent I read somewhere - they didn't have windows in those days I guess.....

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Its 'Daleth' which originally meant the door opening flap on a tent. 'He' originally meant an opening in the sense of a crack, hole, or fissure, and the derivation is actually from the Arabic.

It may interest y'all that in the names of the letters going back to the 4th century AD, which show that the names were the same then as they are now, that the letter 'He' has no derivation in the Hebrew. The name "window" probably appeared when the old written form became the square form we use today.

"I often carried away by my own enthusiasm"

Yes, well it's all very obvious ..... NOW!

That damned double loop in the zodiac thingo! I knew something was fishy but just couldn't get to the bottom of it. .... maybe because it is so simple? (well simpler than I thought it was! ... or maybe I'm just stupid

Bear with me a moment.
Go to the diagram of the double loop, Book of Thoth. Copy out the diagram accuratly (or be reckless and draw in your book like I did)

Write the number 1 next to IV (the lowest in the series of Roman Numerals shown) and go around the diagram attributing the next number (2) to the next highest Roman Numeral (V) and so on. Dont loop, go around the diagram in a circular path. Now do the same with the astrological signs in their order; 1 to Aries, 2 to Taurus, etc.. Now look at how the two sets of numbers you have written at each position compare with each other (starting from IV / Aries and going anti-clockwise); 1-1,12-12, 11-11, (left hand side) 2-2, 3-3, 4-4, 5-7, 6-6, 7-5 (right hand side) 8-8, 9-9, 10-10. The loop is only on one the right hand side where Adjustment / Lust trump number swap is. There is no left hand loop or double loop!

But it is even more obvious than this! The diagram is a number / astrological order diagram, the right hand side is a loop because it is a number / astrological order switch. The left hand side cant loop as it is a Hebrew letter switch that cannot show up on the diagram as it is out of the reference field (ie, the diagram is not referenced to Hebrew letters - that is why the switch of Emperor / Tzaddi show on the Tree of Life as that IS a Hebrew letter reference field).

Crowley tweaked the loop on the left hand side himself, just by , mearly, drawing it that way. There is no astrological / numerical order switch in the Tarot to justify it on the left hand side.

Now look at the tables in The Book of Thoth, p. 278. (the 'wrong' ones) with the strange attribution of Aries / Star, Aquarius / Emperor. Go down the attribution column but start at Aries; Aries, Pisces, [go up to the top] Aquarius, Taurus (the left hand loop in the diagram), Cancer, Libra, Virgo, Leo, (right hand loop), Scorpio, Sag. Capricorn. The double loop only works (in the tables) if you swap the previous astrological attribution to the Emperor and Star. That is why the attributions are out of wack in the table.

Now, go back to the loop diagram. Unloop the left hand side, ie. twist it around swapping IV / Aries with XVII / Aquarius. Is not this a true map of the astrological and Roman numeral progression? There is no need to loop the left hand side in the first place. Looping the diagram on the left hand side explains nothing about a swapped Hebrew letter attribution, so it doesnt matter if it is looped or not, so why loop it? Looping it changes the astro order and the numeral order. The loop on the right hand side however remains as it explains a switch in the numbered order of the Trumps and a corresponding one in the astrological sign progression (and numbered and astrological sign orders are within the reference field of the diagram). So the right hand loop is valid, as demonstrated by the numbering exercise mentioned above.

In any case the loop diagram attributes IV to Emperor and XVII to Star (as do the cards themselves), again, no need to loop the diagram on the left. Even if we use Crowleys table and put Aries to the Star and Aquarius to the Emperor on the double loop diagram, the loop disappears as the astrological progression is back in order.

This does, however, loop the Roman numeral progression on the left hand side, but why do we need to loop the numbers when the astro progression works out?The only way to justify that is to say that the signs loop on the right and the numbers loop on the left but non of that is valid anyway as it is trying to justify a Hebrew letter swapped attribution.

The double loop in the zodiac diagram is a 'fudge' as far as I can see.

If my reasoning is off, please explain and show he where. I am very prepared to admit I might be wrong (or stupid). [You guys have known about this all along haven't you and were pulling my leg? ]

In the Book of Thoth A.C. glosses over it (p.4) "Tzaddi is the Emperor; and therefore the positions of XVII and IV must be counterchanged " (yes, but on the Tree of Life not the Zodiac). And unfortunatly Crowley refers to this balanced double loop as, "The most convincing evidence possible that the Book of the Law is a genuine message from the Secret Chiefs".

As Crowley has said (in intro to Postcards to Probationers), "I often get carried away by my own enthusiasm."

[Note I have used and still use Thoth deck for many years, I am a Thelemite, and utalise much of Crowley's writings and ritual ( except where he has made a mistake). I dont have some hidden agenda against A.C. or his system.]

Yes, Ravenest. I agree with you. It seems you took a different (but related) path to reach the same conclusions.

And I have nothing against Crowley, the GD, the Book of Thotht either. I won't go so far as to call myself a Thelemite, but I do feel the Crowley Thoth Tarot is still by far the best deck around (mistakes included - but then i have examined many decks and have found none that completely please me...)

The double-loop is fallacy. Howzat for an absolutist statement.... LOL