The Star card

Taking a deep breath

Aeon418 said:

Ahhhh..... so you think it's fine to play monkey tricks with the order of the Tarot. (The platonic symbolism is ruined by placing Strength before Justice.)

But you are up in arms over a hebrew letter switch! Huh?! I don't get it. Maybe selective something or other....

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I see your "huh?!" and raise you a "eh?" We are switching letters now? Is nothing sacred to you? lol.

The order of the Tarot is not sacrosanct. As we all know the original decks had no numbers and therefore no order. But the Rosicrucians years ago decided that the cards equate with the Hebrew letters. Now they're stuck with it and so are we.

There seems to be a perfectly good reason for having a card which has someone holding a pair of scales equate with the letter which corresponds with Libra (Platonic symbolism aside). There does not seem to be an equally good reason for equating a card which shows a naked woman pouring water over land and sea with a letter denoting Aries. So how does AC get out of it? He changes the attributes of the letters to support his theory. Now THAT's cute!


As for playing "monkey tricks with the order of the Tarot". Well that's a bit rich coming from a Thelemican .

At the end of The Book of the Law he advises us to burn the thing (hands up all those who did - nah, thought not). A wise man indeed.

Windhorse said:

it is important to note that this particular deck is set out in a particular way; it is created to exist within a particular - and unique - system of correspondences. Thus when using this deck, perhaps we should observe the way of its creator; as we should when using other decks by other creators.

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The trouble is, it isn't. If he'd layed it out with Adjustment and Lust transposed and Emperor and Star swapped I would whole heartedly agree with you. But this most radical of Adepts has in fact presented us with an even more 'traditional' (in the GD sense) layout than Waite's. [I refer to the actual layout of the majors not to the symbolism in them, which is probably what you meant. Sorry.]

Windhorse said:

But it certainly makes for one hell of a discussion.....

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Oh, that it does ROFL

Dulcimer said:

Now they're stuck with it and so are we.

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Speak for yourself!

Dulcimer said:

There does not seem to be an equally good reason for equating a card which shows a naked woman pouring water over land and sea with a letter denoting Aries. So how does AC get out of it? He changes the attributes of the letters to support his theory. Now THAT's cute!

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Heh = Aries = Hebrew Tradition. Last time I looked I wasn't very erm... Hebrew. So what does it mean to me?

If you wan't to agree with the Hebrew tradition, fine. I disagree with it. Is that wrong in your eyes? Is one subjective symbol set wrong, and another right? Hmm...

I can see a reason for both the Emperor and the Star on the 15th path.
The Emperor on the 15th is the descent of LVX.
The Star is the return to NOX and the dissolution of the ego.

Individuality and Nothingness.....

Aeon418 said:

If you wan't to agree with the Hebrew tradition, fine. I disagree with it. Is that wrong in your eyes? Is one subjective symbol set wrong, and another right? Hmm...

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Feeling beleaguered? Sorry buddy, nothing personal. I too get carried away with my enthusiasm.

Aeon418 said:

I can see a reason for both the Emperor and the Star on the 15th path.
The Emperor on the 15th is the descent of LVX.
The Star is the return to NOX and the dissolution of the ego.

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Nicely put

Dulcimer said:

Feeling beleaguered? Sorry buddy, nothing personal. I too get carried away with my enthusiasm.

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Nope! What ever gave you that idea?

Attack away to your hearts content. It's all water off a ducks back to me.

*Sticks fingers in ears again* LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LAAAA.....

This thread seems to be going in a circular progression .... perhaps we can twist it into a double loop?

Of course, one can justify and relate any symbol in a symbol system and attribute the cards to any path and somehow justify it qabbalisticlly and gematrically (if you add 10 and then take away the number you first thought of). But none of that explains the flaws in logic in the explainations AC bought forth himself, relating to the double loop.

Aeon418 said:

The Emperor on the 15th is the descent of LVX.
The Star is the return to NOX and the dissolution of the ego.

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Sorry, forgive my ignorance:

please explain the terms LVX and NOX - is it shorthand?

And yes, I am finding all this going in a 'double-loop'... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


I may be waaaaaay digressing here (my english is shocking today...) but can someone explain the relevance of a goat, the astrological sign of Capricorn, and the Devil Trump?
Why I bring this up is to counter the argument about the symbolic image of scales and association with LIBRA and/or JUSTICE/ADJUSTMENT.

It is assumed that the scales on JUSTICE/ADJUSTMENT are meant to point to the card's meaning being associated with LIBRA/LAMED.
I suggest that whilst the card's image does suggest the western astrological association, I'm not convinced (yet) about the correspondence with the Hebrew letter.

Any takers.....?

Windhorse said:

I may be waaaaaay digressing here (my english is shocking today...) but can someone explain the relevance of a goat, the astrological sign of Capricorn, and the Devil Trump?
Why I bring this up is to counter the argument about the symbolic image of scales and association with LIBRA and/or JUSTICE/ADJUSTMENT.

It is assumed that the scales on JUSTICE/ADJUSTMENT are meant to point to the card's meaning being associated with LIBRA/LAMED.
I suggest that whilst the card's image does suggest the western astrological association, I'm not convinced (yet) about the correspondence with the Hebrew letter.

Any takers.....?

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Well, the goat for Capricorn is actually the fish-tailed goat. Signifying mankind's dual tendences toward the depths and the hights. It is also the point of arrival and departure on the Wheel of Life [Cirlot]. It may also refer to the Mesopotamian water-god Ea.
The goat-headed god on The Devil is Baphomet. Take your choice of interpretations as an ironic 'scapegoat', upon whose unhappy back were laid all the sins of the tribe before ritually killing it, or a perversion of Christ, or - the favoured view - a Christianised model of Pan and the 'base', instinctive, nature of humankind.

I don't see where you're going with this. What do they have to do with Adjustment? What arguement are you trying to counter?

Windhorse said:

Sorry, forgive my ignorance:
please explain the terms LVX and NOX - is it shorthand?

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Among many other things LVX is Lux, latin for Light. The Golden Dawn used it to symbolise the descent of the Divine Light on the individual in the sephira, Tiphareth.

LVX was equated within the Golden Dawn with Konx Om Pax (Khabs Am Pekht), Light in Extension. Which ties in with Dulcimer's previous comments about the Emperor.
It can equally be translated as "to attain the Star", which suggests a different direction.

NOX means Night and was linked by Crowley to the Night of Pan and the Crossing of the Abyss on the Tree of Life along with the giving up of the Ego-self in the Cup of Babalon.
http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Night_of_Pan

The more you dig into these ideas you see more and more reasons why both the Emperor and the Star fit on the 15th path. Maybe they both do and that "might" explain a lot of the supposed errors and mix-ups within Crowley's, The Book of Thoth.

sushumna

light flows down into the body via a sheath
to embew us with grace

also,
many have speculated that we are fed from certain
stars and constelations
(see the work of alice bailley)