Morgan-Greer - Four of Wands

La Force

closrapexa said:
I should have thought my post would confuse some, but I really can't apologize for it, nor even spend all my time teaching Kabbalah every time I need to mention something. What is down to earth for some may not be for others, and if I can gloss over completely subjective interpretations that mean little to me, I heartily invite other to do the same with my own posts. I certainly get just as glassy-eyed when reading "tall, dark stranger" practical meanings...

It's all good hon, post what you feel is important to you, and beneficial to others in the future. You do not have to teach us. Say what you want, see, feel. If we dont understand we know where to look, if not we can ask you.

closrapexa said:
Anyway, yellow is made out of green and blue. Could Greer have done what Harris did in the Thoth; not merely using the color scales but mixing them up? The green is easy to attribute, it is traditionally the color of Venus, as has been mentioned. Blue actually is the color of Chesed, as can be seen here. Could that account for all the yellow? Well, it could account for some of it, but certainly not all. There is a certain amount of blue in the garland, but not enough to make any meaningful conjecture. A solar yellow is a good answer, connecting us to Jupiter, yet somehow I don't find it satisfying. Still, maybe I'll just have to. Probably an answer can be found in 777, but I'll have to look a bit later. And if we have Venus represented, where is Aries her mate? Are the red ribbons of Aries fastening and stabilizing the green garland of Venus? Aries isn't known as a stabilizer, except in a rather dictatorial fashion, he wouldn't tie down Venus like that.

Hmmm... I'm almost inclined to agree with whoever said that the background serves merely to focus our attention on the foreground, as much as that seems to dry up further investigation.

See you do have good insight to share, also some very good ? 's, it has me thinking, which is good, please keep contributing, I like.

Richard

SNAFU deleted.

Richard

SweetIsTheTruth said:
We will return to our normal programming momentarily.....

Question.

So according to the symbolism we see on the card, what are the practical interpretations that one could use in a reading, that would have real-life application that normal people would understand?

We now return to our usual programmng................

By considering the Sun as intermediate between Mars and Venus and as the median planet in the Ptolemaic ordering (based on apparent velocity), but without considering Mary's Grail conjecture or the nature of the query or neighboring cards in the spread, I think that the card's decan description as Perfected Work makes for a pretty good keyword. There is another somewhat more relevant consideration, but as it adds 'extraneous complexity,' I shall refrain from explaining it.

SweetIsTheTruth

LRichard said:
ETA. I really would prefer to stay away from the technical aspects of Qabalah,

As would I. Were I ever to make the choice to learn Hebrew or Kaballah, I will learn it from the Jews, not the GD, for the same reason I would never ask a Christian what the Old Testament means.

As far as the letters themselves, I find orderings like this to be far more convincing than GDs. That's part of the reason I don't care to spend time on GD.

SweetIsTheTruth

closrapexa said:
I should have thought my post would confuse some,

It's not confusing.

SweetIsTheTruth

LRichard said:
By considering the Sun as intermediate between Mars and Venus and as the median planet in the Ptolemaic ordering (based on apparent velocity), but without considering Mary's Grail conjecture or the nature of the query or neighboring cards in the spread, I think that the card's decan description as Perfected Work makes for a pretty good keyword. There is another somewhat more relevant consideration, but as it adds 'extraneous complexity,' I shall refrain from explaining it.

That's exactly what I needed to know. A barren desert represents "Perfected Work." That makes total sense. And yes, I know the title comes from GD, not you.

SweetIsTheTruth

LRichard said:
I agree up to a point, but 'extraneous complexity' is a subjective call.

Student: Master, I need to prepare some potatoes, in order to eat. How can I chop the potatoes?

-----
Master of the Golden Dawn: One will never be able to understand how to use the knife to prepare food correctly until one first learns the art of blacksmithing. Until one has made one's own knife and forged the steel himself, one can never truly understand the correct use of the knife.

Therefore, get thee to the local technical college and inquire as to classes in the art of blacksmithing. You will need to secure financing for the classes, unless you can pay cash out of pocket. So if you have no cash on hand, and your credit is bad, you will first have to repair your credit. Be sure and ask about licensing requirements and number of hours of study required in the state in which you reside. It will take 12 or 24 months, depending on where you live.

Once you have completed the course and have the blacksmithing certificate in hand, you still will not be able to use the knife correctly, for next you must prepare a sharpening stone. One will never be able to grasp the correct use of the knife until one knows how to sharpen the knife itself. And one will never understand how to sharpen the knife properly, unless one has first forged one's own sharpening stone.

Student signs up for blacksmithing classes, but unfortunately dies of starvation, penniless and in debt (student loans), not long after blacksmithing classes begin.

-----

Practical Master: Gather the following three things and bring them to me, a knife, a cutting board and a potato. I will show you how and you can follow my example. This is the path of Enrique or Mel.

-----

I want to thank everyone here. This has indeed been extremely educational. My love for Marseille, historical decks and all pre-1909 decks continues to grow (along with my collection of pre-1909 decks). I see now, very clearly, why I only own four 1909 and later decks. It was a mistake for me to join this group, because this is not the direction I am headed. I knew this going in, but I needed to get it up front and in my face to truly understand it.

I will probably always see 1909 and later decks as irreversibly defective, because no matter what one does, the huge gaping GD tumor in them, can neither be ignored, nor denied.

Richard

Picatrix

n the third face [of Aries] ariseth the figure of a white man, pale, with reddish hair, and cloathed with a red garment, who carrying on the one hand a golden Bracelet, and holding forth a wooden staff, is restless, and like one in wrath, because he cannot perform that good he would. This image bestoweth wit, meekness, joy and beauty.

Picatrix

This fits the image of Perceval, the Red Knight, in remorse for having failed in the Grail quest on account of his naivety. However, as the future Grail King, he is destined to incorporate both the masculine (Martian, wooden staff) and Feminine (Venusian, golden bracelet) into his spiritual (Wands) makeup, thus acquiring compassion and earning his Kingly office. His is perfected work, not as fait accompli but in potentia.*

ETA. If the light from a red (Martian) source and a green (Venusian) source are combined, the resultant is yellow (Solar), which also is suggested by a certain segment of the path of the lightning bolt of creation, which is extraneous.

*In the Prose Lancelot (aka the Vulgate Cycle) Galahad is Grail Knight. He peers into the Grail and has the ultimate Beautific Vision, after which Earth cannot hold him much longer and he dies. Galahad is a type of Christ, essentially an ascetic monk from birth. Perceval is different. He falls in love, loses his faith in God, repents, and (in Wolfram's Parzival, I believe) he ultimately gets married. His is really a quest for what the Lance and Grail symbolically represent: stages in his own spiritual development.

La Force

LRichard said:
n the third face [of Aries] ariseth the figure of a white man, pale, with reddish hair, and cloathed with a red garment, who carrying on the one hand a golden Bracelet, and holding forth a wooden staff, is restless, and like one in wrath, because he cannot perform that good he would. This image bestoweth wit, meekness, joy and beauty.

Picatrix

This fits the image of Perceval, the Red Knight, in remorse for having failed in the Grail quest on account of his naivety. However, as the future Grail King, he is destined to incorporate both the masculine (Martian, wooden staff) and Feminine (Venusian, golden bracelet) into his spiritual (Wands) makeup, thus acquiring compassion and earning his Kingly office. His is perfected work, not yet as fait accompli but in potentia.

ETA. If the light from a red (Martian) source and a green (Venusian) source are combined, the resultant is yellow (Solar), which also is suggested by a certain segment of the path of the lightning bolt of creation, which is extraneous.

Thanks for bringing in the Picatrix, as you know, I have been working with these meanings, I like them, due to them being the oldest known meanings of the cards (c. 1256 )

The Picatrix - Venus in Aries, It is a decan of subtlety, and beauty.

Paul Huson adds: Subtlety and subtle guidance and of new things, and new equipment and so on.

Thanks for the pictures, cool that does so explain the predominance of Yellow

Richard

The Rider-Waite card is also yellow and barren looking except for the garland and the vegetation near the bridge over the moat. In PKT he mentions the idea of 'perfected work' in passing, as he usually does when revealing Book T material.

From the four great staves planted in the foreground there is a great garland suspended; two female figures uplift nosegays; at their side is a bridge over a moat, leading to an old manorial house. Divinatory Meanings: They are for once almost on the surface--country life, haven of refuge, a species of domestic harvest-home, repose, concord, harmony, prosperity, peace, and the perfected work of these. Reversed: The meaning remains unaltered; it is prosperity, increase, felicity, beauty, embellishment.

The notion of perfected work itself is somewhat misleading. It is an ideal, not a practical goal. Perfected work does not exist in the real world. It is a beacon giving a direction in which to proceed in an endeavor. Aim your sights at perfection. You won't get there, but proceed in that direction.

In the case of Parsifal, the Grail Quest is an allegory of the Great Work of Alchemy. Parsifal wins the Grail on the second try, but this is only a stage of the Work, not the terminus. The previous Grail King screwed up and got emasculated, among other things. The Grail itself does not confer perfection. There is still work for Parsifal to do, work to be done on himself to sustain what he has achieved, just as he had to work on himself in order to merit the Grail in the first place. The Great Work is a continuing process, not a goal. You don't just make the Philosopher's Stone and then quit. Making the Philosopher's Stone is just another way of describing the process of proceeding in the direction of the Perfected Work.

Morgan-Greer - Four of Wands

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