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Symbolism in the RWS 6 of Cups

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoife View Post
Aahhh... I've just realised...
Ravenest, there's another way of doing a tarot reading which, to put it simply, is more interactive. The 'reader' offers a framework within which the querent can explore their own interpretation. As such, when the reader indicates that the card concerns matters of memory, a querent who has experienced childhood abuse may react accordingly. I would say its important that the reader isn't shocked by this response... and hence, why its important to explore the range of possible 'meanings'.
Yay! ... that is what I do - I offer the general 'framework' of a cards meaning and modulation and leave it up to .... wait a minute .... didn't I write all this before in that other post where people said ......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoife View Post
Like you, I would be appalled if a reader was to pronounce upon laying down the 6 of Cups... "Aaah... I see you were abused as a child"... or similar.

This is my very point !

But also its not that the person might say that (which would be bad enough ... I didnt even postulate that far myself ! ... but that interpretation or similar which is out of context with the card itself will colour any interpretation. If I saw that 'molester' energy in the 6 of cups, it would taint the 6 of cups if I inserted into the interpretation.

Its like I scoff at marriage ... a client gets a reading with the Lovers in it .... I scoff at it because personally I have a bad view on it. But it might be the best thing in the world for that person. My lOvers card looks very much like a marriage, I dont use that image in that way, anything I say is modified by the ACTUAL CARD MEANING.

The problem is minors with images .... abstract minors people see as the 6 of cups ... RW 6 of cups they see as anything THEY associate with that image.

By the cards (forget existential ... I meant that 'in and of itself', a meaning of its own NOT by a persons association ) 'essential meaning of itself ' by the fact that it is a 6 and a cup

And not 'Oh OH! Look out little girl ! (who has now become a dwarf ... who has a face like an old lady... and the guy with a silly hat ... and long sleeves, maybe he is hiding a knife in there ? ... and so on. )

But it will carry on ... I know some will keep doing that ... as many encourage a a card meaning in a reading to come from whatever arises regardless of number and suit.


Thank you ... you may all start throwing rocks now ... (fake beards are available to the left)

(oh I am in RW forum ... no rocks down here ... <ducks a flying dictionary> )
Top   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post
Bingo! And there is nothing wrong with doing that. It is one approach to the cards. There are also other approaches. The cards exist, all the different images of every card in all the different decks exist, and all the differing ideas about the cards and the images exist. There is no one existential reality.
I cant agree with the second part ... they 'exist' ... yes.

I see each card having a meaning that can be modulated in its field of meaning.

Like Platonic forms, they are wide and change, but there are boundaries that they change WITHIN ... otherwise everything will dissolve into everything else and there would be no separation, identity or variant reality - slush.


Sorry cant go along with any card can mean anything and everything ... again, we would be back to reading blank cards or inkblots.
Top   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
There is another possibility, that the image itself sucks. There are several such cards in the RWS that I feel either don't do the attributions justice or are simply wrong. We shouldn't take Waite's authority as the final word, especially when producing images such as these opens you to the possibility of making mistakes.
Or the artwork isnt good and someone gives that significance (like the old lady's face ).
Top   #103
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For me, the RWS 6 of Cups concerns the past, and hence is essentially about memory. And what I know about memory is that it is rarely about purely factual recall, but is fundamentally coloured by emotion, and the passage of time. Witnesses to an event can give widely differing accounts. Anyone who's worked in conflict resolution will tell you that a seemingly straightforward issue can be recalled very differently from opposing points of view. Memories of events which generate intense emotional reactions can seem particularly sharp, and yet research has shown that they may be no more factually accurate. And of course there's the whole business of suppressed memories, and the mess of recovered memory syndrome.

And so... the fact that the image on the RWS 6 of Cups is so ambiguous, with skewed perspective, images within images, uncertainty about the identity and intention of the characters, makes it a perfect representation of the idiosyncrasies and inconsistencies of memory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
... that interpretation or similar which is out of context with the card itself will colour any interpretation. If I saw that 'molester' energy in the 6 of cups, it would taint the 6 of cups if I inserted into the interpretation.

The problem is minors with images .... abstract minors people see as the 6 of cups ... RW 6 of cups they see as anything THEY associate with that image.

By the cards (forget existential ... I meant that 'in and of itself', a meaning of its own NOT by a persons association ) 'essential meaning of itself ' by the fact that it is a 6 and a cup
The issue for me is - who is doing the interpreting? With my usual style of reading that person is not me... my role is to offer a broad framework of 'meaning' [whatever 'meaning' means]. It is for the querent to interpret the image... within the framework of meaning... [and most importantly] within the context of their own life, circumstances, experiences, memories, etc.
Hence, if the querent's personal interpretation concerns memories of an abusive childhood, it is not for me or anyone else to contradict. As others have said, this may be rare, but is nonetheless valid 'meaning' within the broad spectrum of meaning for a particular card.
Top   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Sorry cant go along with any card can mean anything and everything ... again, we would be back to reading blank cards or inkblots.
Part of the problem is that two different uses of Tarot are frequently presented under the same catch all term of "Tarot reading."

In one approach the cards have a strictly defined meaning that is tied to the symbols on the cards. But this 'magical language' has to be absorbed and deeply integrated in such a way that it 'seeds' the subconscious mind and sets up a channel of communication via a clearly defined set of symbols. To me that is Tarot reading in the proper sense.

The second approach came out of the self help scene in 80's and basically sees the cards as meaningless pictorial designs. These are then used as a blank 'field' for the projection of the personal psyche. This is a perfectly valid use of Tarot, but I personally would not call it 'reading'. In fact you could use any kind of cards for this sort of exercise. But this is the method pushed by many modern day Tarot authors for popular consumption.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Sorry cant go along with any card can mean anything and everything ... again, we would be back to reading blank cards or inkblots.
I didn't say that and really don't like my long post being reduced to a statement like this. However, within a theme, a card can still take on a range of meanings. In particular instances and in light of the question and other cards, the Six of Cups (or any other card) can take on a very different aspect than the reader's or the book's normal meaning.
Top   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418 View Post
Part of the problem is that two different uses of Tarot are frequently presented under the same catch all term of "Tarot reading."
I agree with your statement totally although I don't have the problem with labeling one 'reading' and the other something else. And, you seem to overlook that a reading can incorporate several approaches. I tend to integrate what the client projects with my own knowledge of the Golden Dawn & other traditional meanings of the cards, as well as my own wider ranging knowledge of myth and symbol. I don't think it has to be either-or.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoife View Post
For me, the RWS 6 of Cups concerns the past, and hence is essentially about memory. And what I know about memory is that it is rarely about purely factual recall, but is fundamentally coloured by emotion, and the passage of time. Witnesses to an event can give widely differing accounts. Anyone who's worked in conflict resolution will tell you that a seemingly straightforward issue can be recalled very differently from opposing points of view. Memories of events which generate intense emotional reactions can seem particularly sharp, and yet research has shown that they may be no more factually accurate. And of course there's the whole business of suppressed memories, and the mess of recovered memory syndrome.

And so... the fact that the image on the RWS 6 of Cups is so ambiguous, with skewed perspective, images within images, uncertainty about the identity and intention of the characters, makes it a perfect representation of the idiosyncrasies and inconsistencies of memory.
Highly personal one that! I agree (I have spent a LOT of time in court and observed written record going back years (that only I have had access too) - written down at the time, and later 'testimony' ... its either lies or confusion (like the guy that insisted he had informed and talked to 'T.' on the phone many times between 1986 and 1990 ... prob was 'T.' never had a phone then ) I totally agree with you about the dynamics of memory ... but just would not associate that as represented by the 6 of cups

but I can see how you could associate that with the RW 6 of cups IMAGE .

- Just curious here, as I know some people use more than 1 deck - if you do, do you translate your RW 6 of cups image meaning to other 6 of cups cards image or symbolic / abstract design 6 of cups ... or do you give the 6 of cups in other decks different associations ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoife View Post
The issue for me is - who is doing the interpreting?
I AM ! I am the reader, the object view for the client ... the client makes their OWN associations with the interpretation ... its their reading and not mine ... why should I project MY associations on to them ... especially in such sensitive areas ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoife View Post
With my usual style of reading that person is not me... my role is to offer a broad framework of 'meaning' [whatever 'meaning' means]. It is for the querent to interpret the image... within the framework of meaning... [and most importantly] within the context of their own life, circumstances, experiences, memories, etc.
Hence, if the querent's personal interpretation concerns memories of an abusive childhood, it is not for me or anyone else to contradict. As others have said, this may be rare, but is nonetheless valid 'meaning' within the broad spectrum of meaning for a particular card.
I totally agree with you here ! I am protesting about the reader putting their stuff on the client ... not the client associating with and image. I have had that many times ... even when it is not relevant or obvious our even totally out of context with the card meaning

of course I am going to explore what comes up for the client.

I hope I have not been misinterpreted to the point that people think, some poor person is having a near break down, surfacing trauma from the past ... and ravenest sits there admonishing them saying "NO! That card does NOT mean that ! "

I dont believe I said anywhere that a querent can have a wrong association.

And this brings me back to another gripe ... it is the querents reading ! Not the readers reading (unless they are the same person).
Top   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlitterNova View Post
I once read this website about Stanley Kubrick and The Shining (it was essentially just many, many articles pasted together into a website). It analyzed nearly every scene in the movie and pretty much every thing in every scene to come to specific conclusions about Stanley Kubrick's intent when filming The Shining. It is all very convincing when taken together but it forgets the important fact that Kubrick is a human and not a god, and not every single decision he makes is working towards a specific goal. If you're trying to convince me of something you must first prove that the evidence you're gathering is falsifiable and therefore actually provable, and this didn't pass that basic test. Reading mounds and mounds of meaning into every single detail (no matter how odd) of every single RWS card reminds me of that website because it similarly seems to assume that the cards were created by gods and not men, and it also fails the 'falsifiablity test'.

Here's that website, if you're interested
http://www.collativelearning.com/the%20shining.html
Ah yes ... but if we fill every card IMAGE with every meaning we can come up with ...

then no one can be wrong


Yay! "Everyone's a winner! "

link to off-topic image removed by Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
Wow, I really put my foot it my mouth that time. I really really misunderstood your post! I guess I thought you were saying something else entirely!
It was interesting as on first read I thought 'Gee GN is paying on Clos' but a 2nd reading I saw it was an agreement.

Its English language use of 'you' I think.

1.) If you are going to turn over the 6 of cups and say "look out, death is coming", you have lost the plot.

2.) If ( one / some / someone ) turns over the 6 of cups .... (they) have lost the plot.

"lazy English' often uses 'you' when it actually means "they' or 'me'

its as if we need 'confirmation bias' ; we often substitute 'me or I' with its near opposite 'you'.

Its subtle and is done a lot, one actually has to ( see ... I could have said 'you have to' ) look concentratedly to see it and notice its implication, but it can arise 'semi- consciously' so we think someone IS talking about us directly and is in disagreement.
Top   #110

 





 


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