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Symbolism in the RWS 6 of Cups

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prudence  prudence is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post

This is becoming like the whole issue of tarot itself, say what you want, anything can mean anything else, but get down to the real detailed philosophical nitty gritty ... and not allowed, irrelevant, coming from the 'ego' / intellect .... or off topic of the coversation.

Make it up as you go along ..... get a pat on the head.

Whatever.

I really don't see this being advocated here or anywhere else. In this thread, which started years ago, some people were discussing how they saw something creepy lying beneath this image. I did not conclude that this meant they would project this idea onto the 6 of cups in a reading situation, perhaps if their sitter saw something creepy in it they might allow that kind of tangent to be explored. As most of the members who had posted so many years ago are long gone now, we cannot really know what they meant when exploring some of the creepier thoughts that this image conjured within their minds...

I don't see creepiness in this image, I see something very sweet, innocent, gentle. But if someone else sees a dwarf who has less than honorable intentions, in a reading situation, well, it seems to me the sitter is the one who is able to say yay or nay to the suggestion, especially if it is the sitter who sees this aspect in that image. Should a reader ever suggest such an unpleasant scenario when this card comes up in a reading, without being cued to it by the sitter? I'd say no. Again, I do not think anyone here has suggested that it is okay to do so.
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To me the Saltire is a reference to the X shape out of which emanates Tiphareth. This would also fit with Teheuti's comments about the origin of the cross and its connotations of humility and triumph. This would make the pleasure aspect of the card quite a bit deeper; not simple "I like this" but a far more powerful spiritual message, the sweetness of the mystical experience of Christ.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
a far more powerful spiritual message, the sweetness of the mystical experience of Christ.
And the pain of martyrdom and unworthiness. Growing up as a Catholic there was little mysticism and no shortage of an expectation of pain and suffering in references such as this.
Top   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
. In heraldry objects crossed in an X fashion are also called Saltire, for example swords saltire. It was a common symbol of Christian emperors from the fourth century (for example used on coins).

It is a white Saltire on blue field on the Scottish and other flags; a crimson St. Andrew's cross on white field on the flag of Alabama.

'X' is also of course an ancient abbreviation for Christ (from the greek letter Chi).
Okay ... I was unfamiliar with the general term and thought you were referencing the Scottish flag; " led me to the possibility of the Saltire (St. Andrew's Cross) on the shield" .

So, it could mean as much as the symbol means; two things crossed ... and not specifically Masonry .... or the fact that they are Scottish ... or a railway line is crossing a road .
Top   #164
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X as cross is a symbol of crucifixion, as the greek letter Chi is an abbreviation of Christ that goes back to early Christianity. Christ and particularly the crucifixion are both associated by Waite with Tiphareth:

Quote:
"From considerations of of the mystic life, or that which is
called the Path; from the attempts to express in a language, which
shall be common to us all, our understanding of the term of our
research and whatsoever is involved therein; it is desirable on
certain occasions; and I have chosen this as one- to look at a diverse
aspect of things within the Order, and to dwell upon other kinds of
duty which belong in a particular manner to the life of Tiphareth.
When I speak of other kinds of duty, you must know that I am
postulating some duty in chief which is imposed above all and before
all by the Grade of Adeptus Minor. Some of us have passed that Grade
in the official sense, and in symbolism are no longer on the cross of
Tiphareth, but in one of the deeper and further states. They know that
those behind them can be told only- that in this life we never leave
Tiphareth, but continue to explore it further...."


"...We also, who remain in Tiphareth as I have said, are still
upon the Cross of Sacrifice, though in symbolism we may have risen
with Christ, and in the Grade of Adeptus Exemplus, some of you may
come to know that there are greater crucifixions than those of
Cavalry, because there is the Cross of Glory, and because the Lamb is
slain from the foundation of the world.
"Well, Fratres et Sorores, the first and highest duty of the
Adeptus Minor is that implied by his Obligation; the offering up of
his life in sacrifice 'on the mystical Cross of the Adepts for the
divine and declared in the heart and soul'; the leading of the
purified life in Tiphareth; the aspiration after consciousness in the
spirit; the following of the rule of Tiphareth, which is that of
'crucifixion in Christ' and finally that 'neither death nor life'
shall seperate any of us henceforth from 'the love and the service of
God."

End quote from:
"On Ceremonial Union", an official document of the Independent and Rectified Rite (1906 to 1911). Published by R. A. Gilbert, in "Hermetic Papers of A. E. Waite"
Top   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prudence View Post
I really don't see this being advocated here or anywhere else. In this thread, which started years ago, some people were discussing how they saw something creepy lying beneath this image. I did not conclude that this meant they would project this idea onto the 6 of cups in a reading situation, perhaps if their sitter saw something creepy in it they might allow that kind of tangent to be explored. As most of the members who had posted so many years ago are long gone now, we cannot really know what they meant when exploring some of the creepier thoughts that this image conjured within their minds...
Oh, its trickier than that! Its a revival due to another thread, I wasnt going to bring this all up again in that thread, I was just using the pedophile association from it as an example ... someone else revived this because of the other thread where a lot of the related dynamics are (and outrage at me ). In regard to years ago and what they think, the poster who linked to this thread from the other, was vocal in the beginning and has been present now . So it may be hard to follow by not reading all of that (and be able to hold the tread and context mentally here) ... especially if people are 'coming in late'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prudence View Post
I don't see creepiness in this image, I see something very sweet, innocent, gentle. But if someone else sees a dwarf who has less than honorable intentions, in a reading situation, well, it seems to me the sitter is the one who is able to say yay or nay to the suggestion, especially if it is the sitter who sees this aspect in that image. Should a reader ever suggest such an unpleasant scenario when this card comes up in a reading, without being cued to it by the sitter? I'd say no. Again, I do not think anyone here has suggested that it is okay to do so.
That is pretty damn close to what I have been saying all along

Your last two sentences contain my point exactly, in both threads this has been my point which I outlined a few times but there seem to have been protests and complaints about that, so I keep trying to explain what I mean. As we go along some people seem to be saying similar . Some people seem to be reading other stuff into what I AM trying to say.

I like the way you put it though.

I would add a qualification with .... actually, I wont ... its all in my other posts.
Top   #166
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So, why don't we each give our interpretation of a couple of one-card readings in which the RWS Six of Cups appears. If you use a particular interpretative system, please state what it is.

1) A 28-year-old married man in an upwardly mobile career wants to know what he should do to get a raise at work.

2) A 35-year-old single woman wants to know why none of her relationships don't last longer than a year.

3) A 45-year-old divorced man wants to know if he should move from Rochester NY to San Diego CA.
Top   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
X as cross is a symbol of crucifixion, as the greek letter Chi is an abbreviation of Christ that goes back to early Christianity. Christ and particularly the crucifixion are both associated by Waite with Tiphareth:
Wonderful quote, Kwaw. This is an excellent example of the kind of thing that Waite may very well have deliberately asked to be included as it was so central to his thinking and it stands out on the card as very possibly having some significance.
Top   #168
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Regarding the gloves and apron as being Masonic:
"In the continental rites of Masonry, as practised in France, in Germany, and in other countries of Europe, it is an invariable custom to present the newly-initiated candidate not only, as we do, with a white leather apron, but also with two pairs of white kid gloves, one a man's pair for himself, and the other a woman's, to be presented by him in turn to his wife or his betrothed, according to the custom of the German masons, or, according to the French, to the female whom he most esteems. . . . The investiture with the gloves is very closely connected with the investiture with the apron, . . . both are allusive to a purification of life. "Who shall ascend," says the Psalmist, "into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands and a pure heart." The apron may be said to refer to the "pure heart," the gloves to the "clean hands." Both are significant of purification - of that purification which was always symbolized bv the ablution which preceded the ancient initiations into the sacred Mysteries.*. . . the Psalmist says, "I will wash my hands in innocence, and I will encompass thine altar, Jehovah."
THE SYMBOLISM OF FREEMASONRY, Albert G. Mackey, 1882, p. 136-138.
Top   #169
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X marks the spot: the centrality of Tiphereth. This mirrors the centrality of the (inner) Self. In Aion, C. G. Jung identifies the Christ as archetype of the Self. X (as Chi) is a common abbreviation for Christ (ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ).
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