About Héron's TdM reproduction

LeRomain said:

Hi guys!
I had a thought about the Conver family and the question of the dates that do not match.

Could it be that the 1760 deck was printed by Nicolas' grandfather who happened to have the same name of his grandson (Nicolas 1784-1833)?
I am not so sure about the US but in Europe it is a very old and established tradition for the newly born child to have the same name of his grandfather.

LeRomain

Click to expand...

It could have been but unfortunately in this case the grandfather was called Mathieu too and we know he wasn't a cardmaker. Oddly there are more tarots bearing the names of newcomers in the art (first generation : Chosson, Madenie, Doda(l); 2nd generation Conver) than those of the well-established dynasties.

Confirmed infos

Philippe said:

It could have been but unfortunately in this case the grandfather was called Mathieu too and we know he wasn't a cardmaker. Oddly there are more tarots bearing the names of newcomers in the art (first generation : Chosson, Madenie, Doda(l); 2nd generation Conver) than those of the well-established dynasties.

Click to expand...

Hello,

I confirms via genealogy.

I appreciate to see that Philippe is a searcher with adequate documentation.


Bon dimanche.

Yves

Hello Yves, hello Philippe!
Hello everybody!

I have to admit that the history of ancient Tarot decks is very intriguing, very fascinating.
So, here is another thought about the 1760 date.
Could it refer to the year in which the woodblocks were made?
In other words, Nicolas Conver used an old set of woodblocks to print his famous Tarot deck.

The story might have been something like this: one fine day, monsieur Conver came across an old set of woodblocks (either he purchased them in an antique shop or were gifted to him).
And he said: "WOW! These woodblocks are so cool. I'm gonna make a serie of Tarot decks with 'em, something very old-fashioned (à la ancienne)".
Of course these woodblocks presented signs of time-passage, usage and even woodworm marks. That would account for the angel's missing eye in the card of Temperance and other similar things.
Also, he got to have a name for these decks, something very potent and evocative.
So he decided to call them "the 1760 model", where in fact the date 1760 refers to the year in which the woodblocks were made and not when the cards were printed.

And that is how an old (and maybe forgotten) Tarot deck came to live once again.
LeRomain

Evil is in details as truth...

LeRomain said:

Hello Yves, hello Philippe!
Hello everybody!

I have to admit that the history of ancient Tarot decks is very intriguing, very fascinating.
So, here is another thought about the 1760 date.
Could it refer to the year in which the woodblocks were made?
In other words, Nicolas Conver used an old set of woodblocks to print his famous Tarot deck.

The story might have been something like this: one fine day, monsieur Conver came across an old set of woodblocks (either he purchased them in an antique shop or were gifted to him).
And he said: "WOW! These woodblocks are so cool. I'm gonna make a serie of Tarot decks with 'em, something very old-fashioned (à la ancienne)".
Of course these woodblocks presented signs of time-passage, usage and even woodworm marks. That would account for the angel's missing eye in the card of Temperance and other similar things.
Also, he got to have a name for these decks, something very potent and evocative.
So he decided to call them "the 1760 model", where in fact the date 1760 refers to the year in which the woodblocks were made and not when the cards were printed.

And that is how an old (and maybe forgotten) Tarot deck came to live once again.
LeRomain

Click to expand...

Bonsoir Le Romain and all,

Here my version:

One Conver (most probably Mathieu father of Nicolas Conver) bought a set of woodblocks that have been effectively engraved in 1760.
He may have bought them before his own death (dated 1804) as to:

Either prepare tarot decks under his own name Mathieu Conver by erasing previous cardmaker name.

Or
Give this woodblocks to his son Nicolas Conver as to prepare his begining in cardmaking business.
(Nicolas CONVER was cardmaker from 1801 up to 1829).
So he may have replace previous cardmaker name by his son Family and given name (Nas = Nicolas + CONVER).

This name change may have been done just after Mathieu death (1804) by Nicolas Conver himself too.

To illustrate this here his my own picture I took from 2 of Deniers card woodblock in Museum in Marseille.

By looking carefully two zones you may see that:

1760 date is really part of woodblock.

Nas CONVER names are not really curved as per other lines of engraving.
A strange not engraved and empty zone is just after this Nas CONVER zone.

Probably previous cardmaker name was much longer that Nas CONVER.

Adding small part of engraved details was a normal practice in this times.

Regarding angel's missing eye in the card of Temperance just look at this very old card and see that this eye was clearly ok..... before worms start eating woodblock.

A XRay examination or other scanner technic would confirms (or not of course) this hypothesis.

Any views and or comments ?

Salutations from Marseille Tarot Laboratory )

Yves

Yes the pic shows clearly that NasCONVER has been added afterwards. Unfortunately this doesn't help us to guess the name engraved before the adding.

Furthermore if the dates don't fit the names in some cases, in others the dates are themselves ambiguous. 3 examples : F. Chosson the 6 of 1672, J. Payen the 4 of 1743, R. Schär this strange 17

CPS by PhilBeDaN, sur Flickr

Hello Philippe, an hello for everybody

Philippe I take this opportunity to ask a question on the sidelines , not my intension to divert this topic so interesting and revealing


In the image that you show the paper with that is made the card of Jean Payen,
The paper is made with linen ? Have you had a chance to touch on that card?

Hello eltarot 78

the Chosson and the Payen are scans of my facsimiles (publishers :Yves for Chosson, Fournier Del Prado for Payen). The Rochus Schär is a scan from the BN. Looking at the Payen with a magnifying glass can indeed reveal a kind of raster but I don't know if it's due to the original deck or to the printing of the facsimile.

In fact it's not discernible to the naked eye so it's probably my scanner exaggerating a visual effect...

Thank you Philippe for your reply

I also have a facsimile of Payen Fournier del Prado and paper texture not seen so,
so I drew attention, it is very probably what I was seeing whether your scanner

Hi everyone!
Thanks to Eltarot78 for joining the discussion.
As I understand it, the Del Prado edition of the Payen tarot deck was issued by the famous museum in Madrid but not meant to be commercialized. Can you confirm that?

LeRomain

Hello LeRomain

No the deck was available for sale some years ago, around 2005 I think. It may be out of print, which is most unfortunate as it's a remarkably well made facsimile.