Barleywine
Yes, I attached the diagram from the PKT to my first post, without the text. I'm mainly interested in alternate position numbering and names, not so much the interpretation.
Which Celtic Cross?
Yes, I attached the diagram from the PKT to my first post, without the text. I'm mainly interested in alternate position numbering and names, not so much the interpretation.
Tanga
Too tired to read through this whole thread presently.
Here's the Celtic Cross (plus extended into the 12 Astrological houses bit) that I use, which is a combination of the format my teacher gave me years ago - Jackie T Barnes, (psychic and esoteric trainer at the College of Psychic Studies, London) - and a poem describing the layout that I read once somewhere:
n.b. - I don't use the extended bit as I'm not yet (and may never be - who knows) versed in Astrology.
I go up to 11/12.
13---------12---------------------11-----10
14----------------------5------------------9
15----------4---------1, 2---------3------8
16----------------------6------------------7
17
18---------19---------20----------21----22
1) One finds you (current situation)
2) Two crosses you (present influence)
3) Three before you (immediate future events)
4) Four behind you (recent past events)
5) Five crowns you (potential opportunities, the conscious)
6) Six below you (foundation of situation, the subconscious)
7) Seven for your house and home (self position, physical self)
8) Eight for your hopes and fears (hopes, wishes, fears, doubts, the mental self)
9) Nine for what you least expect (outside influences, the emotional self)
10) Ten for what is sure to be (final outcome of future events, spiritual self)
11) Timing and advice. The 1st Astrological house - Aries, the self
12) Past influences that affect the future. The 2nd Astrological house - Taurus, finance.
13) The 3rd Astrological house - Gemini, communication.
14) The 4th Astrological house - Cancer, home.
15) The 5th Astrological house - Leo, creativity.
16) The 6th Astrological house - Virgo, health.
17) The 7th Astrological house - Libra, marriage.
18) The 8th Astrological house - Scorpio, beginnings/endings.
19) The 9th Astrological house - Sagittarius, travel.
20) The 10th Astrological house - Capricorn, destiny.
21) The 11th Astrological house - Aquarius, hopes.
22) The 12th Astrological house - Pisces, restrictions.
I was taught to split the deck into majors and minors, and draw a card from each pile for each position - reading the pairs of cards together for the interpretation.
...right... I'm off to zzzzzzzzzz land.
Here's the Celtic Cross (plus extended into the 12 Astrological houses bit) that I use, which is a combination of the format my teacher gave me years ago - Jackie T Barnes, (psychic and esoteric trainer at the College of Psychic Studies, London) - and a poem describing the layout that I read once somewhere:
n.b. - I don't use the extended bit as I'm not yet (and may never be - who knows) versed in Astrology.
I go up to 11/12.
13---------12---------------------11-----10
14----------------------5------------------9
15----------4---------1, 2---------3------8
16----------------------6------------------7
17
18---------19---------20----------21----22
1) One finds you (current situation)
2) Two crosses you (present influence)
3) Three before you (immediate future events)
4) Four behind you (recent past events)
5) Five crowns you (potential opportunities, the conscious)
6) Six below you (foundation of situation, the subconscious)
7) Seven for your house and home (self position, physical self)
8) Eight for your hopes and fears (hopes, wishes, fears, doubts, the mental self)
9) Nine for what you least expect (outside influences, the emotional self)
10) Ten for what is sure to be (final outcome of future events, spiritual self)
11) Timing and advice. The 1st Astrological house - Aries, the self
12) Past influences that affect the future. The 2nd Astrological house - Taurus, finance.
13) The 3rd Astrological house - Gemini, communication.
14) The 4th Astrological house - Cancer, home.
15) The 5th Astrological house - Leo, creativity.
16) The 6th Astrological house - Virgo, health.
17) The 7th Astrological house - Libra, marriage.
18) The 8th Astrological house - Scorpio, beginnings/endings.
19) The 9th Astrological house - Sagittarius, travel.
20) The 10th Astrological house - Capricorn, destiny.
21) The 11th Astrological house - Aquarius, hopes.
22) The 12th Astrological house - Pisces, restrictions.
I was taught to split the deck into majors and minors, and draw a card from each pile for each position - reading the pairs of cards together for the interpretation.
...right... I'm off to zzzzzzzzzz land.
tarotbear
WOW! Amazing! So, you pull two cards for each?
Not 'into' the astrology aspects of things, either, but the concept is intriguing ... Thank you for posting this!
Not 'into' the astrology aspects of things, either, but the concept is intriguing ... Thank you for posting this!
kalliope
A couple of years ago I found Biddy Tarot's post about the Celtic Cross, and to be honest, it was the first time it ever really clicked for me. I went through the motions of the CC when I was first learning, and then quickly abandoned it. Her post is here, and is definitely worth a read.
I love the above/below as conscious desires vs subconscious drives (better explained by her in the post). The bottom of the column as "advice" is great, and I like calling the one above it "external influences" instead of "environment."
But the best part is her especially useful description of how to compare pairs of cards to build the story and make sense of the whole thing. (ETA: last section of the post.) She actually makes the CC seem practical, I dare say!
I love the above/below as conscious desires vs subconscious drives (better explained by her in the post). The bottom of the column as "advice" is great, and I like calling the one above it "external influences" instead of "environment."
But the best part is her especially useful description of how to compare pairs of cards to build the story and make sense of the whole thing. (ETA: last section of the post.) She actually makes the CC seem practical, I dare say!
kalliope
I forgot to say that another reason I like Biddy's version is that the cross section doesn't force me to remember which way to encircle the the middle (clockwise or counter clockwise), and also doesn't resemble a religious cross like the above-below-left-right versions do. One starts with card 3 as the Past, then contrasts it with card 4 as the Near Future. Then 5 is Above/Conscious Goals, and then you have its opposite in card 6, Below/Subconscious Drives. I like working with the opposing pairs.
For what it's worth, though, when I used to do the encircling versions, I always preferred those that started below, and worked clockwise to card 6 on the right (as in your first post), because I liked the figure-8 like flow of movement as you then drop to the bottom of the column and build up. The versions that go counter clockwise to card 6 on the left (or clockwise starting at the top and ending on the left) felt awkward because you were left hanging over there after making the circle and had to jump over the entire thing to start your column.
For what it's worth, though, when I used to do the encircling versions, I always preferred those that started below, and worked clockwise to card 6 on the right (as in your first post), because I liked the figure-8 like flow of movement as you then drop to the bottom of the column and build up. The versions that go counter clockwise to card 6 on the left (or clockwise starting at the top and ending on the left) felt awkward because you were left hanging over there after making the circle and had to jump over the entire thing to start your column.
Madrigal
Flower and Stem
irrelevant to the thread
irrelevant to the thread
Barleywine
I agree with the "cross" perspective, which is why I never use Waite's version. I use Eden Grays, which runs clockwise from the bottom, emulating the diurnal path of the Sun. I also don't use "above" and "below" as "conscious" and "unconscious," more like "possibilities and opportunities" and "foundation of the matter."
tarotbear
Excellent. This is why there ARE variations on the CC - it's really trapped in it's Victorian past and no modern Querent will have the slightest idea what you are talking about when you use archaic and 'coded' terminology. That may have worked for timid Victorian virgins where the more ancient it sounded the more valuable it was - even if it had just been made up on the spot by the Reader. The Querent wants an answer to their question in words they can understand, not some swami hocus-pocus mumbo-jumbo ...
Barleywine
kalliope
Yes, I always found the "crowns you," and "beneath you" terms to be particularly murky. What the heck do those mean to anyone? Not much, I'd guess!
Although, I have to say that "foundation of the matter" isn't much clearer to me. Does that mean it's the cause of the situation? Or foundation as in the original basis, aka the deep past?
I don't use "conscious" and "unconscious" as abstract psychological terms, which I agree could be just as mysterious to sitters. But I like "Conscious Goals" because you can say, "this is what you are actively working towards; it's the Best Outcome as you see it; it's your stated goal; it's what you think or say you want." And "Subconscious Drives" is "what you may not realize you're doing; something emotional/internal that is affecting your behavior even though you don't realize it; this might be what you want deep down without knowing it, and this could be sabotaging your efforts to achieve your Conscious Goal."
These make much more sense to me, and they jive with the way I tend to discuss life with others even when we're not using cards.
