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Petit Oracles de les dames, c. 1807

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Huck  Huck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
I detected at an exhibition photo (Andrea Vitali, Malta) a version of the Petit Oracle des Dames.



http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=141 ... the small photo at the right

Compare the small Amor picture with the later card:



It's almost identical inclusive the small Pique Ace and the Venus sign above it.

I looked in the catalog of Andrea Vitali, made around the time of the Malta exhibition and found as the Amor picture as Nr. 118 ..

Blocquel is a name, which appears in DDD "Wicked Pack of Cards" variously ...
I got pictures of the 1809 book of Blocquel. It isn't identical to the Petit Oracle des Dames text shown by the gallica.fr source.



It's partly a dream book ("Songes" = dreams), which claims to be in relation to a deck with 74 pictures ... which should mean the Petit Oracles des Dames. All 42 card motifs are distributed in the book as black-white pictures, possibly only copied. And their function in the book stays rather unclear, perhaps they are just "decoration".

The dream book is a sort of dream dictionary with (if I counted correctly) 211 entries, which consist of a word and an additional short explanation, and as a "riddle" of 0-3 related numbers. Examples:





I don't know, what these numbers shall mean. I counted, that 0 number was once used, 1 number was used 46 times and 2 numbers were used 28, all others have 3 numbers.

The used numbers range from 1 to 90 ...

I've no explanation for this.

The dream book goes till page 64. Then follows an additional manual to draw cards.



32 cards are used.

********************

If there's any way to understand this strange arrangement, it should be in the introduction.





















It somehow relates to the book of Thot (78 cards) and it deals with 12 other objects (?).

78 + 12 = 90?

My humble French doesn't get much sense of it.


*********

Added: This 19th century advertisement demonstrates, that Dream books and playing card divination had a close connection:


http://silos.ville-chaumont.fr/flora...:UNIMARC:78758
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Huck - do you have the rest of the pages describing the manner of drawing the cards with a 32 card deck - page 65+?
Top   #32
MikeH  MikeH is offline
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Huck wrote
Quote:
I don't know, what these numbers shall mean. I counted, that 0 number was once used, 1 number was used 46 times and 2 numbers were used 28, all others have 3 numbers.
,
The explanation for the numbers at the end of each dream symbol interpretation is on the last page you reproduced. They are lottery numbers ("Loterie Imperiale"). If you dream about something, you look up its numbers and buy lottery tickets accordingly. Unlike the dream symbol interpretations, these apparently aren't from the Egyptians and the Persians, but from “les plus grands Calculateurs". [Sentence deleted, replaced with these: I see in another place, http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewto...t=lotto#p11761, that you, Huck, have already made this point. As you indicate, Etteilla published two short pieces in 1782 on the lottery, one on the "Loto des Indiens que nous a donné en 1772 Mr. Etteilla" (Indians' Lotto given to us by Mr. Etteilla) and the other on the "combinaison hisléreque extraite du Loto des Indiens" (Hislerian Combination, extracted from the Indians' Lotto) (DDD p. 82). D'Odoucet discusses a method for the "extraction des 5 numéros des Loteries de France", based on dreams or visions, in Science des Signes, vol. 1, pp. 121-126. The 1809 essay would appear to be an application of this system, although I can't figure it out precisely. It uses a system of converting the letters in words to numbers, a system which Etteilla on p. 43 of Philosophie des Hautes Sciences attributes to Hisler, citing a "Lettre sur l"Oracle du jour, imprimée en 1772, page 4."]

[Later edit: paragraph deleted here, as I misunderstood Huck.]

The dream symbol interpretations are included in the current France Cartes LWB for its Petit Etteilla, in both French and English, minus the lottery numbers.

France Cartes' LWB also has the 1809 booklet's essay on how to use Etteilla's 33 card pack to interpret dreams (there in both French and English). The 1809 booklet calls it "Les Songes Expliqués et Représenté par 74 Figures Gravée en Taille Douce", starting p. 3. Despite the title, the essay has nothing to do with any 74 figures (France Cartes wisely changes the title to "Maniere simple, naturelle et facile d'expliquer les songes avec les Cartes"). It refers only to Etteilla's 33 card deck; the 1809 text calls the deck not only the "Livre de Thot" but also the "Livre de Tour" (the latter designation corrected to "Livre de Tout" by France Cartes). The essay's reference to Joseph's dream interpretation skills suggests knowledge of de Mellet. I notice that the word "cartomancie" is used, a sure sign that Etteilla didn't write it, as he hated the word (as opposed to "cartonomancie"). But it uses only Etteilla's Petit Etteilla card interpretations. While it doesn't mention Etteilla's thirty-three cards specifically, it uses exactly the same example (and card interpretations) as another essay (not in the 1809 booklet, but in the modern Cartes France booklet) which does use Etteilla's deck and interpretations, including the "Etteilla" card and mentioning Etteilla by name.

The modern France Cartes LWB does not include two other essays that are in the 1809 booklet. One is pp. 65-79, "Introduction sur la maniere de tirer les cartes." [Next sentence was edited from original] This essay, as Huck points out, is not about the cards illustrated on the surrounding pages, nor even Etteilla's Petit Etteilla!

On p. 69 we have the subtitle "Explication de ce que signifient les trente-deux cartes, de huit en huit" (Explication of the meanings of the thirty-two cards, from eight to eight). It gives meanings for the Ace, King, Queen, Jack, Ten, Nine, Eight, and Seven of each suit, just as in the Petit Etteilla (but omitting his 33rd card, named "Etteilla"). The interpretations are not at all the same as Etteilla's (a good reason for France Cartes not to include this essay with their Petit Etteilla deck). I do not recognize this particular system, but then all I've studied, besides Etteilla's 1773 book, are Grand Etteilla interpretations. Apparently in 1809 there were multiple systems of interpretations of the cards of a Piquet deck! Why not? I think I will have to compare it with other fortune-telling packs of the early 19th century.

There follows, on p. 80 of the 1809 booklet, a final essay; it is "Maniere de Tirer les Cartes", beginning "Vous prenez un jeu composé de trente-deux cartes..." and ending, p. 96, with "...selon sa capacité." It deals with multiple interpretations of the same 15 cards drawn at random, very complex. I have never seen anything like it anywhere, at least not in Etteilla- school booklets. Perhaps someone has seen a version of this essay somewhere else.

So Blocquel and Castiaux are nothing if not eclectic in this early publication.
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MikeH  MikeH is offline
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In the previous post I said briefly that D'Odoucet talked about a lottery winning-system in Science des Signes, which is what the numbers in the dream symbolism essay of 1809 are about.

I now see two reasons for associating the other dream interpretation essay, "Les Songes, expliques et representes par 74 figures” with D'Odoucet. So probably the lottery numbers in the other essay come from him as well. .

(1) He wrote on dream interpretation using the cards in the same vol. 1 of Science des Signes. And the method explained there is very similar to the method explained in the 1809 booklet (pp. 6-7, reproduced by Huck), although the example is different, and they use different decks (Grand Etteilla vs. Petit Etteilla).

(2) On p. 10 there is a passage about how alchemical texts used images from the Livre de Thot:
Quote:
"Abraham, juif et Flamel, ont copie litteralement les hieroglyphes qui sont sur les feuillets du livre de Thot, pour en faire les tableaux ou estampes de leur ouvrage!"

Voyez Mutus Liber, le triomphe hermetique , les 12 Clefs de Bazile, et enfin voyez-les tous.

(Abraham the Jew and Flamel have copied literally the hieroglyphs that are on the leaves of the book of Thoth, in order to make the tableaux or prints in their work!

See Mutus Liber, the hermetic triumph, the 12 Keys of Basil, and finally see them all.)
On p. ii of D'Odoucet's Science des Signes vol. 1, for comparison, we have
Quote:
...Abraham, juif et Flamel, ont copie litteralement les hieroglyphes de ce livre pour en faire les tableaux ou estampes de leurs ouvrages. Voyez Mutus Liber, le Triomphe hermetique, les douze Clefs de Bazile Valentin, et enfin voyez tous les autres philosophes.
Clearly this one, published 1804, is the source of the other, of 1809. In contrast, in Etteilla himself I have so far only found, in the same context, "Abraham, juif et Flamel".

Moreover, of course, we have D'Odoucet's whereabouts as Lille (where he was under house arrest) in 1804-1808, per DDD (p. 108), from police reports, the last information about him from any source being an order in Lille for his arrest, 7 November 1808, presumably because he was often out of town.
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Maniere de Tirer des Cartes -- where it appears and perhaps in a history timeline


Hello Mike,

I think you have an excellent start and grasp of many of the decks, and origins of the instructions--we all seem to have several bits and pieces. The independent Society of Thoth (Etteilla/Hugand) and subsequent D'oucet additions/omissions--you seem to have quite a collection of great notes.

I'm still tracking down things I find in 19th century subsequent BP Grimaud decks that probably originated from other publishers. I can only view these unwieldy threads with images and several pieces of information via my laptop outside of my work and classes.

I think I stilll need to check through lists of what we mutually have and not have. Maybe a timeline of material to be developed offline...

I am beginning to understand the allegory of Isis and the Shepherd in the Hugand material of the late 1700's.

The Petit Oracle de les Dames meaning number 1 in the French (circa 1806?) that has the deity Isis in the circle formed by the circle which is the emblem of the annual cycle and image of eternity and infinity...Isis is what the Egyptians consider the original of all.

The four coins of the scene are the emblem of the seasons...
Eagle - Spring?
Lion - Summer?
Bull - Autumn
Man - Winter?

It is an incredibly rich puzzle. The text I was looking at is page 12 and 13 of the free downloaded pdf from BNF...don't have my Petit Oracle des Dames items with me right now.

Back at you all later...only have some rare hours on weekend when not in training/work.

Thank you very much and will update when I can soon. (maybe offline of this thread)

Cerulean



Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeH View Post
Huck wrote

The explanation for the numbers at the end of each dream symbol interpretation is on the last page you reproduced. They are lottery numbers ("Loterie Imperiale"). If you dream about something, you look up its numbers and buy lottery tickets accordingly. Unlike the dream symbol interpretations, these apparently aren't from the Egyptians and the Persians, but from “les plus grands Calculateurs". [Sentence deleted, replaced with these: I see in another place, http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewto...t=lotto#p11761, that you, Huck, have already made this point. As you indicate, Etteilla published two short pieces in 1782 on the lottery, one on the "Loto des Indiens que nous a donné en 1772 Mr. Etteilla" (Indians' Lotto given to us by Mr. Etteilla) and the other on the "combinaison hisléreque extraite du Loto des Indiens" (Hislerian Combination, extracted from the Indians' Lotto) (DDD p. 82). D'Odoucet discusses a method for the "extraction des 5 numéros des Loteries de France", based on dreams or visions, in Science des Signes, vol. 1, pp. 121-126. The 1809 essay would appear to be an application of this system, although I can't figure it out precisely. It uses a system of converting the letters in words to numbers, a system which Etteilla on p. 43 of Philosophie des Hautes Sciences attributes to Hisler, citing a "Lettre sur l"Oracle du jour, imprimée en 1772, page 4."]

[Later edit: paragraph deleted here, as I misunderstood Huck.]

The dream symbol interpretations are included in the current France Cartes LWB for its Petit Etteilla, in both French and English, minus the lottery numbers.

France Cartes' LWB also has the 1809 booklet's essay on how to use Etteilla's 33 card pack to interpret dreams (there in both French and English). The 1809 booklet calls it "Les Songes Expliqués et Représenté par 74 Figures Gravée en Taille Douce", starting p. 3. Despite the title, the essay has nothing to do with any 74 figures (France Cartes wisely changes the title to "Maniere simple, naturelle et facile d'expliquer les songes avec les Cartes"). It refers only to Etteilla's 33 card deck; the 1809 text calls the deck not only the "Livre de Thot" but also the "Livre de Tour" (the latter designation corrected to "Livre de Tout" by France Cartes). The essay's reference to Joseph's dream interpretation skills suggests knowledge of de Mellet. I notice that the word "cartomancie" is used, a sure sign that Etteilla didn't write it, as he hated the word (as opposed to "cartonomancie"). But it uses only Etteilla's Petit Etteilla card interpretations. While it doesn't mention Etteilla's thirty-three cards specifically, it uses exactly the same example (and card interpretations) as another essay (not in the 1809 booklet, but in the modern Cartes France booklet) which does use Etteilla's deck and interpretations, including the "Etteilla" card and mentioning Etteilla by name.

The modern France Cartes LWB does not include two other essays that are in the 1809 booklet. One is pp. 65-79, "Introduction sur la maniere de tirer les cartes." [Next sentence was edited from original] This essay, as Huck points out, is not about the cards illustrated on the surrounding pages, nor even Etteilla's Petit Etteilla!

On p. 69 we have the subtitle "Explication de ce que signifient les trente-deux cartes, de huit en huit" (Explication of the meanings of the thirty-two cards, from eight to eight). It gives meanings for the Ace, King, Queen, Jack, Ten, Nine, Eight, and Seven of each suit, just as in the Petit Etteilla (but omitting his 33rd card, named "Etteilla"). The interpretations are not at all the same as Etteilla's (a good reason for France Cartes not to include this essay with their Petit Etteilla deck). I do not recognize this particular system, but then all I've studied, besides Etteilla's 1773 book, are Grand Etteilla interpretations. Apparently in 1809 there were multiple systems of interpretations of the cards of a Piquet deck! Why not? I think I will have to compare it with other fortune-telling packs of the early 19th century.

There follows, on p. 80 of the 1809 booklet, a final essay; it is "Maniere de Tirer les Cartes", beginning "Vous prenez un jeu composé de trente-deux cartes..." and ending, p. 96, with "...selon sa capacité." It deals with multiple interpretations of the same 15 cards drawn at random, very complex. I have never seen anything like it anywhere, at least not in Etteilla- school booklets. Perhaps someone has seen a version of this essay somewhere else.

So Blocquel and Castiaux are nothing if not eclectic in this early publication.
Top   #35
EricBowers  EricBowers is offline
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Complete LWB Translation into English


I took 2 and a half hours and read the entire little white book in English (translating from the french book in my head) and posted it as a youtube video. It's kind of entertaining. LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJpE...I&feature=plcp
Enjoy!
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MikeH  MikeH is offline
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Yes, you got it right, Cerulean. It's taken from de Gebelin from Le Monde Primitif. He had her as the Goddesss of Time, but after that it is the same. Here is Karlin's translation:

Quote:
In the four corners of the Tableau are the emblems of the four Seasons, which constitute the changes of the year, the same which make up the four heads of the Cherubs. These emblems are,

The Eagle, The Lion, The Ox, & the Young-Man.
The Eagle represents the Spring, when the birds reemerge.
The Lion, the Summer or the ardors of the Sun.
The Ox, the Autumn when we plow & when we sow.
The Young-Man, the Winter when we come together in society.
I look forward to listening to your U Tube presentation, Eric. I will listen while reading the LWB that Cerulean refers to, I think it's http://www.labirintoermetico.com/02T..._des_dames.pdf

Added later: I seem to remember that Kwaw in some post or other related this quote from de Gebelin to some booklet such as this one. At the same time, the part about the serpent with its tail in its mouth is related to Etteilla. Whether he says the same thing as this booklet, that it represents the universe, and "the circle" is both "the emblem of the annual revolution and the image of eternity, which has neither beginning nor end," I can't remember. I thought he had a comment in the 4th Cahier, but I can't find it at the moment.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeH View Post

Added later: I seem to remember that Kwaw in some post or other related this quote from de Gebelin to some booklet such as this one.
Yes, the petit oracles de les dames quotes extensively from le monde primitif (especially, if memory serves me right, in relation to the first 21/22 cards).


In Gebelin the sequence reads allegorically in reversed order - going from XXI the world to Bateleur I and Fool 0.

The Etteilla Petit Dames, clearly drawing from Le Monde Primitif, follows a 'reversed' allegorical sequence too, but has also renumbered them in a (somewhat changed*) order of their sequential reading from 'I The World/Isis' to a combined, double card @ XXI with the bateleur on one end and fool on the other (see the picture) to reflect that.

Kwaw

* For example, the virtues are together in Etteilla's Petit, and judgment (as creation of man and woman) comes after the creation of the elements (sun, moon, stars = fire, water, air):


1. 'l'universe (=21. The World)

2. A double tableau card, one representing 'the second element of fire' and the other 'victory' - and it is under the sign of leo.

The first tableau is of the sun (= 19. The Sun) - emblematic of twins, the union of man and woman, two in one body, the androgine. Also includes symbol of taurus as 'the more ancient sign'. The second tableau is 'victory' holding in one hand the laurel crown and in the other the palm-leaf of triumph. The nine of hearts, placed at the corner, means for both subjects, victory, happiness and success in major operations. This card, even if it is surrounded by sinister cards, is a very good omen: the sun's rays penetrate everything.

3. The first element water (=18. The Moon) Under the sign of cancer.
This tableau represents the moon and terrestrial animals. The designers shows wild and domestic animals by the wolf and the dog. . . The seven of clubs designates the same subject . . . this card announces sinister things.

4. Stars. The third element air . . . under the sign of aquarius. (=17. The Star) The 8 of hearts, a happy augur.

5. Creation of Man and Woman, generation. (=20. Judgment)
The ancients regard Mankind as a child of the earth (the teeth as seeds of Cadmus, the thrown stones of Pyrrha). . . the 10 of clubs in a piquet pack.

6. Terrestrial paradise, wicked man and woman. (=16. House of God, adam and eve expelled from the garden of eden as in the minchiate)

7. Force Majeure, enterprise (=15.The Devil)
This tableau is the last of the first series (of gold). It shows the wicked spirit Typhon. . .

So in Etteilla's Petit Dames the Gebelin/Mellet's 'age of gold' = 1-7 (= TdM 21-15 with judgment moved) :

(1)21, (2)19, (3)18, (4)17, (5)20, (6)16, (7)15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricBowers View Post
I took 2 and a half hours and read the entire little white book in English (translating from the french book in my head) and posted it as a youtube video. It's kind of entertaining. LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJpE...I&feature=plcp
Enjoy!
Enjoyed it Eric -- I've sorta almost completed a translation myself but going in mall bits and pieces at a time -- well done on the marathon run!
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Kwaw, you call the Petit Oracle des Dames "Etteilla's Petit Oracle". I don't see how the Petit Oracle can be identified with Etteilla. There are too many differences between its system and Etteilla's. I think it is worth listing some of them.

(1) The astrological assignments are often different. For 3, the Petit Oracle has Cancer, which corresponds to the crayfish in the picture; Etteilla has Gemini for this Moon card. Then in 4, the Petit Oracle has Aquarius for this water-pourer, while Etteilla has Cancer. The Petit Oracle has nothing for Prudence, whereas Etteilla gives it Pisces. The Petit Oracle gives Temperance and Night/Day the same astrological sign, Aquarius, while Etteilla's are Capricorn and Virgo. Justice for the Petit Oracle is Libra, but Sagitarius for Etteilla. (I notice that astrological assignment and position--11--agree with Waite; similarly, Strength is 8.) The Petit Oracle gives no astrological signs for any of the virtue cards besides Justice, while Etteilla gives them for all three. The Petit Oracle gives Saturn to the Hermit, who has nothing in Etteilla. The Petit Oracle gives no astrological sign to the Clubs (= Coins for Etteilla), whereas Etteilla gives the number cards in Coins the 7 planets plus three other signs.

(2) The interpretations are also frequently at odds with Etteilla's.

The assignment of animals to seasons in the Petit Oracle is different from Etteilla's (see http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...57&postcount=3). Etteilla has Spring as the Man, Autumn as the Eagle, and Winter as the Bull.

For the water-pourer, 4, Etteilla has "Loss"; the Petit Oracle says this card is a sign of happiness, fertility and regeneration, associated also with prosperity and success. The Petit Oracle says the 8 of Hearts (i.e. Cups) associated with it in the Reversed is Thought; in Etteilla, that is the 7 of Cups.

Etteilla associates the "Last Judgment" image with Judgment, not with the creation of humanity, which comes from de Mellet. In the reversed, the Petit Oracle has "generation" and a 10 of Clubs; there is nothing about that for Etteilla's 10 of Coins.

Etteilla has no expulsion from Paradise.

The Petit Oracle has "Ennui" for the 4 of Diamonds (Batons); in Etteilla, that is the 4 of Cups. The other 4s are likewise not right.

The Petit Oracle's Force Majeur has the left-hand small figure reaching up to the upper figure's genitals, and described in these terms in the booklet. This is not in Etteilla's image.

The Death card is at 13, the booklet says, because the ancients held that this was the least fortunate number. Etteilla said that the ancients held that 17 was the least fortunate number, and gave that number to Death accordingly.

Etteilla said in the Third Cahier that today the Hermit card means a Traitor or hypocrite; it shown with the keyword "Traitre" on the 1789 card, both upright and reversed; whereas for the Petit Etteilla there are two Hermits, one a Sage.

The analysis of "Augmentation", the reversed meaning of the Fortune card, says that the monkey waving a baton (also depicted in Etteilla's card) represents how “ignorance and baseness are favored by fortune, which forgets genius and virtue.” This is not in Etteilla.

The Chariot is for the Petit Oracle a symbol of Osiris and predicts protection, putting an end to dissension (even though the keyword is "dissension"), whereas for Etteilla it is the cause of dissension, with nothing positive.

The Petit Oracle's "choice between vice and virtue" has no equivalent in Etteilla.

The King of Batons (Diamonds) in Etteilla is not the Petit Oracle's Jupiter or a Protector, nor is his Queen a Juno or Protectress.

And so on.

It is true that Etteilla did modify some of his keywords between 1782 and 1789, and even between the 3rd Cahier of 1782 and the supplement to the 4th in 1785. (I plan to have a post on the latter soon, on the 3rd Cahier thread.) But these modifications were minor and nothing like what we see in the Petit Oracle.

I am not sure who designed the Petit Oracle and wrote the booklet. The publisher listed in the booklet is Ducessois, 55 Quai des Augustine, Paris. In c. 1840 the address of Delarue, associated with Blocquel (in Lille) as co-publisher of the "Julia Orsini", was 11, Quai des Augustine. Perhaps the two addresses are related. The Petit Oracle might be the work of D'Odoucet, since he was in Lille after 1804 and known to have been at odds with Etteilla, who called D'Odoucet "Dodo". Perhaps there was more to that disagreement than politics (D'Odoucet being a royalist). Another clue is that Prudence is described as having the word "Thot" on her belt, and she is thus depicted on the card. D'Odoucet's Science des Signes has the only other picture of Prudence depicted in that way (shown by Halbronn in his L'Astrologie du Livre de Thot).

(Added 9/1: checking in Wicked Pack of Cards, which came out after Halbronn, I see that the 1789 deck's Prudence depicted there does have "Thot" on her belt, visible in an enlargement that I made. So this feature is not an innovation of D'odoucet/s.)

.)

(Added 8/29: Huck has a thread at http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewto...grasset#p11735 documenting the announcement of a deck called Petit Oracles des Dames in January 1800; no author is given, but the address matches other work published by Jacques Grasset de Saint-Sauveur around the same time. Huck argues persuasively that this is the deck we know by that title, and that he produced it, perhaps with the help of one or two others whom he identifies. Whether he designed the deck is another matter, but I don't see why not. Whether he wrote the booklet that the BNF associates with it is also another matter, since the address on the booklet is not what is on the announcements.)

It would be of interest, I think, to see a deck earlier than the Petit Oracle that has its non-Etteilla images and/or keywords. Then we we might have a better idea of the French cartomancy tradition as it existed independently of Etteilla.
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