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Etteilla Timeline and Etteilla card Variants - background

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Lismon Etteilla 1890 Keyword listing from 14-77 and some sample images


Droit/Renverse/Title on side
14. Force Majeure/Force Mineure/Le Diable
15. Maladie/Maladie/Le Magicien ou le Bateleur
16.Le Jugement/Le Jugement/Le Jugement dernier
17. Mortalite/Neant/Le Morte
18.Traitre/Faux Devot/Le Capucin
19.Misere/Prison/Le Temple foudroye
20.Fortune/Augmentation/Le Roue de Fortune
21. Dissension/Arrogance/Le Despote africain
22.Homme de Campagne/Homme bon et Severe/Le Roi de Baton
23. Femme de Campagne/Boone Femme/La Reine de Baton
24.Depart/Desunion/Le Chevalier de Baton
25.Bon Etranger/Nouvelle/Le Valet de baton
26.Trahison/Obstacle/Le Dix de Baton
27.Retard/Traverses/Le Neuf de Baton
28.Partie de Campagne/Disputes Intestines/Le Huit de Baton
29.Pourparler/Indesiion/Le Sept de Baton
30.Domestique/Attente/Le Six de Baton
31. Or/Proces/Le Cinq de Baton
32.Societe/Prosperite/Le Quartre de Baton
33.Enterprise/Peines A Leur Fin/Le Trois de baton
34.Chagrin/Surprise/Le Deux de Baton
35.Chute/Naissance/L'As de Baton
--------------------------------------

36.Homme Blond/Home en Place/Le Roi de Coupe
37. Femme Blonde/Femme D'Un Home En Place/Le Reine de Coupe
38. Arrivee/Friponnerie/Le Chevalier de Coupe
39. Garcon Blon/Penchant/Le Valet de Coupe
40.La Ville/Courroux/Le Dix de Coupe
41. Victoire/Sincerite/Le Neuf De Coupe
42. Fille Blonde/Satisfaction/Le Huit de Coupe
43. La Pensee/Projects/Le Sept de Coupe
44.Le Passe/L'Avenir/Le Six de Coupe
45.Heritage/Parents/Le Cinq de Coupe
46.Ennuit/Nouvelles Connaissances/Le Quatre de Coupe
47. Reussite/Expediions D'Affaires
48.Amour/Desir/Le Deux de Coupe
49.Table/Changement/L'As de Coupe
50.Homme de Robe/Home Mechant/Le Roi D'Epee
51. Veuvage/Mechante Femme/Le Reine dEee
52.Militaire/Ignornorance/Le Chevalier Epee
53.Espion/Imprevoyance/Le valet d'Epee
54.Pleurs/Avantage/Le Dix d'Epee
55.Eccliestiastique/Juste Defiance/Le Neuf d'Epee
56.Critique/Incident/Le Huit d'Epee
57. Esperance/Sages Avis/Le Sept d'Epee
58.Route/Declaration/Le Six d'Epee
59.Perte/Deuil/Le Cinq d'Epee
60.Solitude/Economie/Le Quartre d'Epee
61. Elioignement/Egarement/Le Trois d'Epee
62.Amite/Faux/Le Deux d'Epee
63. Extreme/Grossesse/L'As d'Epee
64. Homme Brun/Homme Vicieux/Le Roi de Denier
65. Femme Brun/Mal Certain/La Reine de Deniier
66.Utilite/Inaction/Le Chevalier de Denier
67. Garcon Brun/Prodigalite/Le valet de Denier
68. La Maison/Jeu de Hasard/Le Dix de Denier
69. Effet/Duperie/Le Neuf de Denier
70. Elle Brune/Usure/Le Huit de Denier
71. Argent/Inquietude/Le Sept de Denier
72.Le Present/Ambition/Le Six de Denier
73.Amant ou Amante/Manque D'Ordre/Le Cinq de Denier
74.Un Present/Cloture/Le Quartre de Denier
75.Noble/Enfant/Le Trois de Denier
76.Embarras/Lettre/Le Deux de Denier
77.Parfait Contentement/Bourse D'Argent/L'As de Denier
78. Folie/Folie/La Folie ou L'Alchimste
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Did I miss anything?


I went through the 62 or so pages of postings several times and believe this concludes what I could provide now.

Hopefully the lists,detail, links and pictures were helpful.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerulean
I went through the 62 or so pages of postings several times and believe this concludes what I could provide now.

Hopefully the lists,detail, links and pictures were helpful.

Claps, salutes and cheers your wonderful work!
Top   #53
MikeH  MikeH is offline
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Thank you, Cerulean, for the samples from the booklets, the pictures of various cards in different decks, and the links. Now I have a couple of posts' worth of responses!

BOOKLETS

From your quotes it is obvious that the booklets that go with your Etteilla I decks are from a quite different booklet tradition than the ones for your “Julia Orsini” booklets.

It looks to me like the “Julia Orsini” booklet that goes with your “Lismon”—your B--is an abridged version of the French text in the bilingual Editions Dusserre that we both now have—your A. The French wording is the same in the two, except that your B omits some sentences. Would you agree?

If so, I would want to focus on comparing these four:

The French in A, i.e. the modern bilingual Editions Dusserre booklet.
The English in A, i.e. the modern bilingual Editions Duserre booklet.
Your English translations as posted, which I take it are from your B, the 1890 abridged version of the French in A.
My c. 1838 book, which is in French.

It seems to me that what we have, over time, is:
Originally, my c. 1838 book.
Then, the French text in A, which is an abridgement of the c. 1838.
Next, the French text of B, which is an abridgement of A.
At some point, the English translation of A.
And finally, your English translations of sections of B.

To which will be added as needed: my English translations from the c.1838, as needed.

For now let us ignore the others, which are from a different textual tradition. Including them would be too hard at this point.

I would suggest using the French and English texts of A as a point of departure, since both of us have that, and probably other readers of this Forum as well. I don’t want to go line by line in discussing what is different in the others, but give enough detail so that we can see generally how the texts differ from one another.

I will illustrate what I mean by looking at pp. 2 – 14 of A.

P. 2 begins “INDICATION / des Tarot our cartes qui composent / LE LIVRE DE THOT.” There follows a list of the 56 suit cards, how they differ from the ordinary cards in adding the “cavaliers,” and how the tarot suit-names correspond with the French (batons to carreaux, coupes to coeurs, epees to piques, and deniers to trefles). Then there is an interesting characterization of the trumps. They include the Etteilla or Questionnant, Etteilla or Questionnante, the “six jours de la creation du monde,” the “quatre vertus cardinales,” and “les dix cartes figurant les evenements remarquables de la vie de l’homme,” lisitng cards 13-21 and 78. The accurate English translation of this last has “the ten cards representing the significant events in the life of men.”

The English translation (p. 3) of p. 2 looks accurate to me.

The French of c. 1838 is the same as the French in the booklet, except that it goes on to explain how one can make a deck for oneself using blank sheets of white paper. All you do is draw a rectangle in the middle, put the title of the card in the middle of the rectangle, where the picture would go, and the keywords on top and bottom, as well as the card-number. The book then includes the 78 patterns to follow. In other words, the pictures themselves are inessential.

Naturally the booklet omits this paragraph and the patterns, since the publisher is in the business of selling decks.

P. 4 of the booklet begins the instructions, or “MANIERE DE TIRER LES CARTES / OU TAROTS DU LIVRE DE THOT / EN MOYEN FACILE DE FORMULER LES ORACLES / a la suite des melanges auxquels ces cartes / aurant ete soumises.”

The English translation has only, after the word THOTH (its version of “THOT”): “how to read the cards.”

There follows a routine for shuffling the cards, dealing out 42 of them into six piles of seven cards each, shuffling again, and laying out the piles into six rows, one below the preceding, of seven cards each. This part is the same in French and English, as far as I can determine, and corresponds to what I have in the c. 1838 book. However I inadvertently failed to copy two pages, a page of which was the beginning of these instructions, having to do with the initial shuffling. But the instructions look the same where I have them.

Then comes how to do the reading. You start with the first line and go from right to left. The Questionante (Enquirer) is a young person (“jeune personne”). In that case, you take card 8, the Questionnante, and place it to the right of the first card, outside the line. You apparently fish it out of the undealt cards, or out of the cards already laid down, although the procedure is not specified. So far nothing is different among the English, the French on the other side, or my c. 1838 book.

Then comes the reading. The English gives each of the seven cards by number and the corresponding keyword. In one case, the French is different. While the English has, for card 77, “perfect contentment,” the French has “Bonheur, parfait contentement, felicite.” At first glance, it would seem that the English is merely correcting the French, since in French the keyword is “parfait contentement” only. But that is not so. The French wording is an attempt to simplify something that is in my c. 1838 book more complex. The c. 1738 book has for this card in the reading, “Bonheur,” but with a footnote: “Voyez les synonymes de cette carte qui signifie parfait contentement, felicite, bonheur, etc. etc.” In other words, you are not merely to use the keyword on the card, but consult the lists of synonyms given elsewhere in the book. The relevant page of c. 1738 is p. 44. Here is my scan. I include p. 45 because I need to talk about it, too.



Since the Editions Dusserre booklet does not contain these lists, the editor had to make a change in the text. This change omits the reference in the original to the “synonyms”—and not only the three given but all the rest, the “etc., etc.” In other words, we have already in the booklet a distortion of how the deck is intended to be used: reference to the lists of synonyms is required. The point is to make a sensible prediction out of the cards dealt. The other cards predict a marriage to a brown-haired man who is rich, from which there will be children. “Parfaite contentement” is a little strong; “bonheur,” happiness, would be better. You have to pick and choose.

Then the instructions say that if card 8 happens to be in the first line, and you are reading for a woman, you take it out of the line, put it to the right on the side (as alerady said) and put another card from the unused pack in its place (which was not said). The same is true if you are reading for a man and card 1 is in the line. This instruction is the same in English and French, and also the same as in the c. 1838.

The only difference is in one sentence at the end of this part: “Seule la carte de la personne consultee ne peur etre deplacee.” The c. 1838 sentence here is similar to that of the Duserre’s French: “Il convient de faire remarquer qu’il n’ya que la carte de la personne pour qui on consulte qui doive etre deplacee.” But the English has, “The Enquirer’s card cannot be moved in isolation.” A correct translation, I think, would be “Only the card of the person consulted can be displaced.”

Then there is the question of what to do with the other six rows. Here the English and the French are again different. The English has,
Quote:
If the meaning of the first line is unclear, translate the other lines in succession, and then come back to the first line.
Here is the French.
Quote:
Si vous n’avez pas trouve a former avec cetter 1er ligne en assemblage quie puisse etre explique clairement, vous expliquerez la seconde ligne et ainsi de suite, jusuqu’a que vous ayes pu formuler un oracle sans contre-sens.
There is nothing here about coming back to the first line.

In the c. 1838 text, the relevant passage is the last paragraph on p. 45, which I posted along with p. 44 above.

The French text gives an example: suppose instead of “homme brun,” the card in that position said “femme de campagne.” Then one cannot make sense of the reading. In that case, you go to the next line of cards. But still, how is one to understand this instruction? Is the total reading a combination of all the rows, including the first (as the English suggests), or is it just the reading for the line at which you first got a reading that makes good sense, using all the cards of that row? I don’t know. But after looking at 42 cards, I can’t imagine that anything very definite would come out. So it seems to me that the c. 1838 book is probably saying that you just focus on the line that does make sense.

I think this procedure with the six rows is important. Even using the whole of the word-lists, the meanings are so specific that it may be impossible to come up with a reading that makes sense on the first try. So you go to the next line, and so on, as the French texts say. As to whether you are merely clarifying the first line, or abandoning it and trying something different, perhaps others have an opinion.

Next the booklet, in both French and English, describes how to do a reading with the remaining 35 cards, if one chooses. Unfortunately I failed to copy the first part of this description, including part of the list of interpretations of pairs, triples, etc. Two pages stuck together. What I have for c. 1838 looks the same as in the booklet, with one exception: the clause "only the rogue cards count” in the English has no counterpart in either the French of that booklet or in the c. 1838 text.

Then on p. 14 of the booklet there is a note in smaller print giving yet another way of reading the cards. This section is not in the c. 1838 book at all. [ Note added April 4: It's there, exactly as in the Dusserre booklet; I just didn't see it.] I see no difference in the booklet between the French and the English here.

Now we are ready for the more detailed interpretations of each card, starting with 1 (p. 16 and 17 of the Duserre booklet) and discussing your translations. To be continued in another post (at some point, not today).
Top   #54
MikeH  MikeH is offline
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DECK VARIANTS, ETTEILLA II

Among all the various decks and book reproductions, I see only three variants of Etteilla II, if we can ignore the way in which they are colored and just focus on the lines (and also ignore the “Temperature” variation from Samada).

One type is exemplified by the deck that Samadi posted, which is the same (ignoring “Temperatue”) as the one on trionfi.com. It is characterized by having the suit titles on the right side using the usual tarot names of “Baton,” “Coupe,” “Epee,” and “Denier”—always in the singular—and on the left side " using the French suit names of “Carreau,” “Coeur,” “Pique,” and “Trefle.” [Added April 4: Sumada in a later post, #65, observes that I have gotten left and right mixed up here. The left uses the tarot names, and the right uses the French names. Sumada also observes that the left side is in always in italics but the right side not. But on the Cavaliers, "Baton" etc. is on both sides, both in italics. Ross points out that this exception is probably because there are no Cavaliers in French suits (post #66).]

The second type is exemplified by your deck, which is the same as Papercandy’s and the one in Kaplan vol. 2 p. 404. In this type, the usual tarot names—“Baton” etc.—are on both sides of the card, in the suits.

The third type I have found only in the reproductions in my c. 1838 book. It is like the first type in having the suit names in both tarot (i.e. Italian) and French versions.

It differs from both of the other types in not having the day of the week number in parentheses under the upright keyword or the number of the element in parentheses under the reversed keyword, for those cards to which these descriptors apply.

Here are illustrations of these differences. First I show the difference between those with and without the parentheses: left to right, these images are from my c. 1838 book (third type above), from Kaplan's p. 404, and from trionfi.com’s deck.



And next I show the other difference, between suit titles with both the Italian (i.e. tarot) names and the French names, and those which have only the Italian (i.e. tarot). Here I must use two cards for comparison, as Kaplan and trionfi.com have no suit cards in common. In the top pair, the one on the left is Kaplan, and the one on the right from trionfi.com. In the bottom pair, the one on the left is c. 1838, and the one on the bottom from trionfi.com.




It is possible that there is a fourth type, which is like the Kaplan (and yours and Papercandy’s) except that in script on some of the cards is written, just above the line separating the top and bottom parts of the picture, the title of the card using the French names. I seem to remember a 10 of Swords from some Etteilla II deck that is like that, with “Le Dix de Pique” written on it. Now I can’t find it. I know that was a feature of the 1826 Etteilla I, but I thought I saw it again in an Etteilla II. It would be interesting to see if there are any other cads in such a deck where the same thing happens, and also whether there is any other writing in script, as we see in the 1826.

A fifth type might be the 1910 deck in which the Ace of Batons’ “Naissance” is on top. I’d like to see a few cards from that deck, including that one. [Note added April 4: As Cerulean clarifies in a later post, the 1910 deck is not an Etteilla II, but a Grimaud Etteilla I. So there is no fifth type.]

I notice that the titles and keywords in the Etteilla III “Grand Jeu des Dames” are exactly the same as in your 1890 “Lismon.” That is why a book written for Etteilla II (any of them) can be used for the “Grand Jeu des Dames” as well.

DIFFERENCES BETWEEN ETTEILLA I AND ETTEILLA II

I want to say some general things about what is different between Etteilla I and Etteilla II.

As with some of the Etteilla Is, in all three Etteilla IIs, all the zodiacal designations outside the frame on the first 12 cards have been removed.

The main difference between Etteilla I and Etteilla II that affects all the cards is that titles have been added to all of them, repeated on both sides of the picture outside the frame. (This feature is one that Etteilla II shares with Etteilla III; they even have the same titles.)

You have already given the titles for the suit-cards, so I won’t give them here. The titles for 1-13 are:
1. Le Chaos. Etteillla/Le Quinestionnant. 2. La Lumiere. Eclaircisement/Feu. 3. Les Plantes. Propos/Eau. 4. Le Ciel. Air/Depuillement. 5. L’Homme et Les Quadrupedes. Voyage/Terre. 6. Les Astres. La Nuit/Le Jour. Appui/Protection. 7. Les Oiseaux et les Poissons. 8. Repos. Etteilla/La Questionnante. 9. La Justice. La Justice/Le Legiste. 10. La Temperance. La Temperance/Le Pretre. 11. La Force. La Force/Le Souverain. 12. La Prudence. La Prudence/Le Peuple. 13. Le Grand Pretre. Mariage/Union.

Then there are difference in the pictures between Etteilla I and Etteilla II.

In the trumps, differences are mostly in the pictures on four of the cards, as Decker et al have noted. Temperance has an elephant instead of the two jugs; Prudence holds her staff up proudly, carrying a book in the other hand, instead of looking fearfully at the snake in her path. The man on the “Magicien” card faces left and holds his wand over his “humonculus” on the table; he looks more like a Renaissance Magus than a Hebrew priest. The man in the Roman chariot has been replaced by “Le Despote Africain” in his carriage.

To these differences I would add that the lightning bolt in the “Le Temple foudroye” card is more clearly defined than in Etteilla I. There are probably other minor differences like that.

There are also a few differences in the trump keywords between I and II. On card 15, the reversed is no longer “Force Majeur,” repeated from the upright, but now “Force Mineur.” On card 18, the reversed is no longer “Traitre” repeated, but “Faux Devot.” On 21, the reversed is no longer “Dissension” repeated but “Arrogance.”

In the suits, there is considerable difference in the look of the cards. In Batons, the “Masonic” configurations of knife-blades or lines at the bottom have been replaced by various designs of the sort that publishers used to put at the end of chapters, for something on the rest of the page after the text stops. These designs tend to be oblong in shape, and some have playing cards in them. Cups have circular designs, of the sort seen in emblems. In Swords, various male heads are given, looking like warriors. In Coins, what we see are various female figures engaged in ladylike activities such as playing a musical instrument, smelling a flower, writing a letter, or playing with a small dog.

Another difference in the suits is that the geometric layouts of the suit-objects characteristic of Etteilla I have been replaced by a different set of layouts: for example, the triangular pattern for the rows of the 3s (1-2, going down vertically, in Etteilla I) and 10s (1-2-3-4) have been replaced by 1-1-1 and 1-3-3-3. I gave an illustration of the contrast in an earlier post.

The colorful scenes on the Etteilla I aces and deuces have been kept. The Aces have an arm coming from outside the frame, the arm gripping the suit object, as on the Marseille Aces of Batons and Swords, but without the clouds the arms come out of on the Marseille. In the case of Coins it is a small man, i.e. a homunculus, that is held (or else a very large hand doing the holding). The deuces in both I and II owe much to their Marseille counterparts.

In the suit-card keywords, the most notable difference—pointed out by Cerulean early in this thread--is that in the Ace of Batons, card 35, “Chute” is upright and “Naissance” reversed, whereas in Etteilla II it was the other way around (except in Cerulean’s 1910 deck).

There are minor keyword differences on other cards. On the Valet of Batons, card 25, the Etteilla I reversed’s “Etranger” has been changed to the Etteilla II’s “Bon Etranger.” On the Eight of Batons, card 28, the reversed’s “Campagne” is now “Partie de Campagne.” On the Queen of Cups, the reversed’s “Femme en Place” is now “Femme d’un Homme en Place.” (Obviously, women themselves don’t have high rank!) On the Three of Cups, card 47, the reversed’s “Expedition” is now “Expedition d’Affaires.” On the 10 of Coins, card 68, the reversed’s “Lotterie” has become “Jeu de Hazard.”

There are probably small changes on other suit cards. But not counting the Ace of Batons, I only have only seen reproductions of fifteen Etteilla I cards for comparison. Of the fifteen, as I have enumerated, five show minor changes from Etteilla I to Etteilla II, all on the reverseds. Probably much the same is true of the suit cards whose images on the Etteilla I I have not seen.

All in all, there are only these minor differences between the Grand Atteilla II and the later versions of the Grand Atteilla I. Some changes, such as the addition of titles and the few changes in keywords, which keep closely to the dominant meanings of the word-lists, seem to me to enhance the deck. The images added to the bottoms of the Cups and Swords are also an improvement over the blank spaces on the 1789 originals, which surely were meant to be filled in eventually. Other changes, notably those to the imagery of the trumps, coins, and batons, seem to me to weaken the deck. It is a deck very much tied to the “Julia Orsini” book; in my view it serves it well. Everything that could be said simply and straightforward is on the cards. I might prefer to see more hidden symbolism and an older style of artistry; but none of it is discussed in the book.
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I'm sorry MikeH, Grimaud Grand Etteilla 1900-1910 Ace of Wands


I am not certain, but the wording in your post above seems incorrect.

Mike H says:
In the suit-card keywords, the most notable difference—pointed out by Cerulean early in this thread--is that in the Ace of Batons, card 35, “Chute” is upright and “Naissance” reversed, whereas in Etteilla II it was the other way around (except in Cerulean’s 1910 deck)


My Lismon Etteilla 1890 is the only deck I have where Chute is upright.
I am hoping that post #46 and #49 answered your question

My Grimaud Grand Etteilla 1900-1900 has Naissance as upright and Chute is reversed. See scan please.

Maybe I am not reading you clearly, but there seems to be mistake in your post implying my 1910 Grimaud Grand Etteilla Ace of Wands is the same as my 1890 Lismon Etteilla Ace of Wands.

If I am mis-reading you, I will delete the note.

I think I also tried to correct you on this point previously--pointing out it is the 1890 Lismon Etteilla that is:

"My 1890 Lismon Etteilla is Chute is upright

and my 1900 - 1910 Grimaud Etteilla is Naissance upright and Chute is reversed."

I'm trying to bring it to your attention again, if I am reading you correctly.

Thanks

Cerulean

P.S. I am very appreciative of your detail and if you are the MikeH that has the website that I admire very much, there may be a way that some color scans can be forwarded to you, although they may take some time.
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Cerulean: I was reading you as saying that you have an 1890 Lismon with "Chute" upright and that after 1900 this was changed, so that there is a 1910 Lismon with "Naissance" upright in the Ace of Batons.

Apparently I have misread you again. You are saying that the 1910 with "Naissance" upright in the Ace of Batons isn't a Lismon, or even an Etteilla II, but a Grimaud deck that is in the Etteilla I tradition. If so, I will write a correction to the part of my post that mentioned a 1910 Etteilla II with "Naissance" upright. You are saying that there is no such animal, as far as you are aware. That's fine by me. It makes tracking Etteilla II types simpler.

When you wrote
Quote:
...and subsequent circa 1900 Grimaud Grand Etteilla instructions and designs has changed or corrected the Ace of Wands so it matches Papus Divinatory Tarot, Waite's Key to the Tarot, etc.
it was the words "changed or corrected" that confused me. I was assuming that you meant that the Grimaud Company issued an an Etteilla II after 1900 with the change in the Ace of Batons, which "changed or corrected" an earlier Etteilla II. But I guess you meant (and I might still be wrong) that Grimaud's 1910 Etteilla I was meant as a "correction" not to any previous deck of theirs but to the 1890 Lismon Etteilla II, which they deemed inauthentic.

I have a question about terminology. It would seem to me that since the c. 1838 book has as its first words "Le Grand Etteilla," then the deck it purports to interpret, the earliest known Etteilla II, by "Lismon," would also be called a Grand Etteilla. Moreover, that is also the term used by Decker et al (Wicked Pack p. 147), following Hoffmann and Kroppenstadt, for that deck and other "Lismon" decks, which they call "Grand Etteilla II." Moreover, the "Grand Jeu des Dames" is also for them a Grand Etteilla, namely, a "Grand Etteilla III." When we speak of Etteilla I, Etteilla II, and Etteilla III, we are using shorthand; the proper terms are "Grand Etteilla I," "Grand Etteilla II," and "Grand Etteilla III." Is that not correct? Samada raised a question about this terminology, and I notice that you don't always identify decks that way, in terms of I, II, and III. So it is confusing for me, as I am never sure whether a particular publisher only does decks of a certain type (e.g. Grimaud for type I, Lismon for Type II, Dusserre for type III, and who knows who doing who knows what). I am also not good at identifying decks by the title on the case. So calling something a "Grimaud Grand Etteilla," even though that may be the publisher's title, doesn't mean much to me: what kind of "Grand Etteilla"? I am not a collector of old Etteillas, although I love to see scans of those of others. I read books, not tarot deck cases. That is where my confusion comes from. Perhaps a few others are in my situation. But I am gradually growing to understand the terminology. I am fairly new to Etteilla decks; my previous interest was just in the word-lists in Papus.

I am not the Michael H. who has the fine website, if you mean the one who has the blog about the "pre-de Gebelin" tarot, and before that had the equally fine website about the "Riddle of Tarot."
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MikeH 

I have a question for Samada, Cerulean, or anyone else. I thought the old Grimaud Etteilla I of Samada's was quite beautiful, at least the trumps that she put up on her website. Not only that, but the keywords corresponded to the 1789 Etteilla I, such as I know them. Are the suit cards of this deck, or any similar deck of around that vintage, posted anywhere on the Web?

If not, can anyone tell me which suit-cards of this deck have different keywords than the ones Cerulean listed for the Etteilla II, and what those keywords are, on the old Grimaud? From pictures so far available to me, I could only find them for 16 out of 56 cards. I am trying to understand more fully what the changes were between I and II, and that version of the Etteilla I seems the most authentic around, aside from the actual 1789 decks themselves, which I am assuming no one participating on this thread has a complete set of.

I am one who finds all 78 cards equally interesting.
Top   #58
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Cerulean  Cerulean is offline
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Location: Calif., USA
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Cerulean 
Smile My Grimaud Grand Etteilla 1900-1910--I thought it was Etteilla II


as well as my 1890 Lismon Etteilla.

Just fyi, I think we will be referencing Sumada's scans from 'Sumada's Treasure Box'. Just in case we want to reference the wonderful scans:

http://sumada.multiply.com/

The overall wonderful and extensive contributions by MikeH is much appreciated-thank you very much for the very informative ideas, whoever you may be. Thank you for pointing ways to update or correct many of my very weak bits and pieces. Have a wonderful weekend.

Cerulean
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Cerulean  Cerulean is offline
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Cerulean 
Footnote to Post #49 _ I have an example of a flawed reproduction


There is one reproduction that I thought was authentic but has flaws that has caused me to simply name what I have by publisher and later dates.

My thought was a historically accurate boxed deck of cards and instructions from Editions Duserre with texts chosen by Jean Marie Lhote had everything as historically close. But the deck copied was
- issued with rounded corners,
-one card (4) with the Biblioteque Paris stamp,
-one card (12) Prudence lacks the astrological symbol upright
-blue and pink cards are missing

The Editions Duserre manual is organized different than what BP Grimaud issued with their Grand Etteilla circa 1900_1920 even though the cards with the blue sun/floral are similar. The cards and booklet with 1900-20 edition should reflect Naissance upright. The cards do.

I am mentioning this because in later discussions those who may have this reproduction as a reference may ask if the deck and Jean Marie. Lhote booklet from Editions Duserre agrees with an actual historic set . I would say only the cards are similar to my Grimaud decks of the early 20th century.


The Jean Marie Lhote text of Editions Duserre may have been compiled from older sources than 1900 but is not the Grimaud 1900-1920 booklet.

It would be nice if these beautiful Grimaud cards were older, but frankly the Grimaud 1900 booklet lists other Grimaud divination sets I have seen available after 1900.


So this is why I believe I have Ettiella II decks as of April 2011 dated and identified to the 1890 Lismon and 1900,-1910 Grimaud.

Unfortunately it is hard for me to be accurate in identifying other people's samples. But I am certain others can help with what they can.

The A and B booklet comparison when I can later.




Cerulean
Top   #60




 


 


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