About Héron's TdM reproduction

LeRomain

Hi guys!
I was considering buying a copy of Héron's edition of the Tarot of Marseilles (available at a physical shop here in Rome).
As it is stated on the front of the box, this is a faithful reproduction (actually a photo-reproduction) of an original ancient deck which is kept in Paris.

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/heron-marseilles/

From several sources on the Intenet the original appears to be a deck made by Nicolas Conver, actually the famous 1760 deck which some people regard to as the highest expression of Tdm (although some other tend to dispute that quite strongly).

There is a little problem: from Camoin's website you can see that the 1760 Conver's deck has a totally different look in terms of colours and facial expressions (that is particularly evident in the Magician card). There is generous use of green hue that carries its own specific symbolic meaning whereas in the Héron's you will find a heavy presence of red throughout the deck with some traces of a muddish brown instead of the green.

https://en.camoin.com/tarot/Tarot-Marseilles-Nicolas-Conver-1760.html

So I would like to ask: what is the actual original deck of Héron's photo-reproduction? Can you confirm it is a Conver's? Still made in 1760 but possibly a different one from what is listed in Camoin's website?

Thanks in advance for your help,
LeRomain

Yves Le Marseillais

Nicolas CONVER 1760 in 2016

LeRomain said:
Hi guys!
I was considering buying a copy of Héron's edition of the Tarot of Marseilles (available at a physical shop here in Rome).
As it is stated on the front of the box, this is a faithful reproduction (actually a photo-reproduction) of an original ancient deck which is kept in Paris.

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/heron-marseilles/

From several sources on the Intenet the original appears to be a deck made by Nicolas Conver, actually the famous 1760 deck which some people regard to as the highest expression of Tdm (although some other tend to dispute that quite strongly).

There is a little problem: from Camoin's website you can see that the 1760 Conver's deck has a totally different look in terms of colours and facial expressions (that is particularly evident in the Magician card). There is generous use of green hue that carries its own specific symbolic meaning whereas in the Héron's you will find a heavy presence of red throughout the deck with some traces of a muddish brown instead of the green.

https://en.camoin.com/tarot/Tarot-Marseilles-Nicolas-Conver-1760.html

So I would like to ask: what is the actual original deck of Héron's photo-reproduction? Can you confirm it is a Conver's? Still made in 1760 but possibly a different one from what is listed in Camoin's website?

Thanks in advance for your help,
LeRomain

Bonjour Le Romain,

Both are Conver decks but:

Héron edition is dated post 1805

Camoin website edition is dated circa 1870

Both of them are not of good quality even if both came from same woodblocks.

Unfortunatly they both were printed when woodblocks was already altered on various places.

Plus some black colous badly applicated on Camoin website 1870 version.

But if you are patient enough I am preparing a good quality restitution of this 1760 edition with important missing details who are lacking in this two versions.

I will issued this restitution by September 2016.

Watch ATF or send me your email by PM and I will informs you when avaluable.

Salutations from Marseille City

Yves

LeRomain

Bonjour Yves,
thanks for stopping by!

I will certainly keep in mind your work on the Conver's deck.
Regarding Camoin's website, I think it is worth mentioning that two versions of Conver's deck are listed: the 1760 one and the 1880 one. There is also a very clear and useful explanation of the "colour matter", how and why the original colours were altered and simplified.

LeRomain

Yves Le Marseillais

Devil is in details.... as truth

LeRomain said:
Bonjour Yves,
thanks for stopping by!

I will certainly keep in mind your work on the Conver's deck.
Regarding Camoin's website, I think it is worth mentioning that two versions of Conver's deck are listed: the 1760 one and the 1880 one. There is also a very clear and useful explanation of the "colour matter", how and why the original colours were altered and simplified.

LeRomain

Hello again,

1880 version and 1760 version are quite different:

On both Heron and Camoin 1880 conver you may notice that Temperance XIIII has one eye missing that is a clear evidence that both were printed AFTER woodblocks has been damaged by.... worms in this case (I saw original woodblocks who are located in Marseille city collections where I live).
I have clear pictures of this detail plus other important details that demonstrate that:
Woodblocks have manipulated after their engraving
Nicolas CONVER did NOT engraved them.

That's another story I will tell in a book I prepare.

Bear in mind that both of this reproductions are post dated 1760 (1805 minimum for Heron and 1870/1880 for Camoin website you can see.

I try to informs amatores in details as to avoid faulse allegations and non historical stories.

Best,

Yves

Philippe

Some years ago when you were typing "tarot Conver" in the Gallica's research box, you were getting the card on the left below, belonging to the deck Heron reproduced. It seems this deck is no longer available via Gallica, instead you are redirected to both cards on the right.

Le mat2 by PhilBeDaN, sur Flickr

The Conver (Nicolas 1784-1833 and his father Mathieu 1746-1804) were latecomers in the history of tarot but it is precisely what makes the charm of his/their deck : combining older woodcuts with colours in the neoclassical taste (transparent light blue, emerald green, bright red). You can find copies by Héron where the green is not a muddy brown.

From upper left to lower right : the BN original, Héron 1st edition, LoScarabeo (fac-simile of a late XIXth century edition), fac-simile of the Camoin editions, an early Grimaud and a modern one.

IMG_0003 by PhilBeDaN, sur Flickr

Yves Le Marseillais

Woodblocks

Hello Philippe,

As you noted both Nicolas or his father Mathieu CONVER was not in position to engrave this deck dated 1760:
(Nicolas 1784-1833 and his father Mathieu 1746-1804)

1760 date is really part of woodblocks contrary to Nas CONVER.....

YR

Philippe

So LeRomain, I've just checked all the tarots in Gallica, the original of the Heron Conver is no longer online. Silly me I only downloaded 3 cards when it was still available. Here they are :

Conver original BN by PhilBeDaN, sur Flickr

and their photoreproduction by Heron :

IMG by PhilBeDaN, sur Flickr

You can verify it's the same deck by means of the library stamps down the cards.

I can provide the links to the 2 other Conver of the BN :

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10513817z.r=conver
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10520316w.r=conver

LeRomain

Hello Philippe!
Thanks for your generous contribution, you have helped enormously to shed light into this little mystery.
I guess I will have to go check in person if the TdM Héron edition of my shop is an acceptable one in terms of colourings.
I will post an update as soon as possible.

Have you all a very nice week-end,
LeRomain

Philippe

Thank you LeRomain, it was my pleasure

Yves Le Marseillais said:
Hello Philippe,

As you noted both Nicolas or his father Mathieu CONVER was not in position to engrave this deck dated 1760:
(Nicolas 1784-1833 and his father Mathieu 1746-1804)

1760 date is really part of woodblocks contrary to Nas CONVER.....

YR

Yes Yves, as much as François Chosson couldn't engrave his own tarot in 1672, 28 years before his birth. But as long as you have not found exactly the same decks (for the engraving) published circa 1760 or 1672 under more appropriate names, these tarots remain theirs, even if the woodblocks were made decades before their life. And at least the colouring reflects the cardmaker's taste

LeRomain

Hi guys!
I had a thought about the Conver family and the question of the dates that do not match.

Could it be that the 1760 deck was printed by Nicolas' grandfather who happened to have the same name of his grandson (Nicolas 1784-1833)?
I am not so sure about the US but in Europe it is a very old and established tradition for the newly born child to have the same name of his grandfather.

LeRomain