Richard
The hocus pocusers seem to want tarot to have been designed purposefully and specifically for fortune telling or esotericism.
The History of Things
kwaw
Another consultant of the famous Martin, a certain Madame B***, asked of him, "How shall the competition fare for the heart of Monsier ****.
After following the same procedure of throwing a crown of paper flowers onto the map, Martin replied, "There is no competition, Madame."
"I am the competition!" she indignantly declared, and walked out.
Rosanne
The moment a coin twinkles in the light, there is a line of people waiting to grab it.
It is amazing that at that time it was thought he arrived by Dragon Kwaw!
It would seem that Martin from Piedmont was a survivor of pretty severe birth defects and to survive further he became a celebrity of sorts. Much like the 'little people' in Royal Courts of the Renaissance. They were deemed to have special talents it would seem.
Mention of the Coin, brings me to LRichard's post. Which came first? The plethora of publishing houses and Tarot decks or the need for them? Or what created what?
Playing cards were primarily for playing or 1st use. I am somewhat of a cynic when it comes to the dollar, and everyone needs to eat. It is hard to sift out excellent talent, and needs must as they say. On the other hand, Tarot from Persia is sooooo romantic through modern eyes. It is like the Venetian Mardi Gras-but behind the scenes is all that tourist garbage and sewerage shipped across the med to Africa. I prefer reality- I know the cost of a visit to Venice. I think there are more realists than you think LRichard, just some very loud hocus pocusers.
~Rosanne
PS No one has anything to say about Malatesta other than Huck's quip about him been the 1st collector of cards?
It is amazing that at that time it was thought he arrived by Dragon Kwaw!
It would seem that Martin from Piedmont was a survivor of pretty severe birth defects and to survive further he became a celebrity of sorts. Much like the 'little people' in Royal Courts of the Renaissance. They were deemed to have special talents it would seem.
Mention of the Coin, brings me to LRichard's post. Which came first? The plethora of publishing houses and Tarot decks or the need for them? Or what created what?
Playing cards were primarily for playing or 1st use. I am somewhat of a cynic when it comes to the dollar, and everyone needs to eat. It is hard to sift out excellent talent, and needs must as they say. On the other hand, Tarot from Persia is sooooo romantic through modern eyes. It is like the Venetian Mardi Gras-but behind the scenes is all that tourist garbage and sewerage shipped across the med to Africa. I prefer reality- I know the cost of a visit to Venice. I think there are more realists than you think LRichard, just some very loud hocus pocusers.
~Rosanne
PS No one has anything to say about Malatesta other than Huck's quip about him been the 1st collector of cards?
Debra
I think the main idea is that tarot's history in "everyday" divination is unknowable simply because it's not the kind of practice that leaves a footprint. It's hidden from history not because it was a deliberate cult secret but because it was too mundane to document.
Brings to mind the research on cave paintings and how anthropologists and art historians have basically refrained from claiming to know the 'whole and final story.' Just when you think you've got it down, there's a new wrinkle. (I can document this but not now.)
Brings to mind the research on cave paintings and how anthropologists and art historians have basically refrained from claiming to know the 'whole and final story.' Just when you think you've got it down, there's a new wrinkle. (I can document this but not now.)
conversus
Debra: This is one of the most cogent, helpful, and encouraging things said about this topic that i have ever heard!
CED
Ross G Caldwell
Yes, it includes both trumps and suits.
See the list here
http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Bolognese_Tarot_Divination
Pratesi's is the first column (I am responsible for the contents of that page - it's really old! (in internet time)).
Rosanne
Thank you for the Tarrochino Bologna Cartomancy page.
Interesting sentence....
Interesting sentence....
~Rosanne
Huck
For the current moment of research it seems plausible to assume, that the start of the use of the "name 'Trionfi' for playing cards" took place in Florence (and even, if it took place elsewhere, then it is plausible, that Florence and its many artists were necessary to multiply the innovation). For the current research situation we have, that the oldest Trionfi note is from Florence in September 1440.
Second we have the feature (also mainly from Florence), that the "Trionfi" poem of Petrarca gained general interest around 1440, which led to a second new iconographic stream of Trionfi poem motifs in other arts (cassone paintings, book illustrations) during the 1440s.
Third we have, that the public view on Petrarca turned from "great scholar" to "great poet". For Florence we have, that Bruni wrote a biography of Petrarca in 1436 and Manetti another one "around 1440", which had been a novelty for Florence. Before Petrarca had more interests in Padova.
It became popular in Florence to regard Petrarca as a Florentine poet in a row together with Dante and Boccaccio, the "3 crowns".
Then we have, that the council took place in 1439 in Florence, with much public attention, festivities, increase of income etc. So there had been in this year a natural development climax in the city, comparable to the development in modern cities, if they get a "high event" (for instance "Olympic games"). It seems natural to assume, that "new customs" started at this location. For the council of Constance (1415) we have had a similar European innovation effect. For the Jubilee year 1450 we have a similar innovation effect for Italy.
Well, we have a description of a luxury deck in 1377, a 60 card deck. It had professions painted on 10 number cards, an additionally 5 court cards (which quite a match for a painter to invent 60 figures, so that's "luxury"). The court cards had been King, Queen, Ober, Maid, Unter, so a deck with 4 suits and 15 cards for each suit.
"Trumping" in a card game is a military action ... and in these early decks usually two soldiers appeared, Ober and Unter or Cavallo (soldier on horse) and Fante (foot soldier). It's naturally to assume, that already these older decks had a predefined trump sequence with a hierarchy. Ober 1 beats Ober 2, 3, 4 and Unter 1,2, 3, 4 etc.
The Michelino deck repeated the number of the cards (60 cards) and (perhaps) also the structure (4x15). All court cards (besides the 4 kings) were defined as trumps, so not only Ober and Unter position, but also Queen and Maid.
Really new (as far we know) had been, that the iconography of the courts was changed from the common court symbols to 16 Greek/Roman gods (which again got a hierarchical row between them).
Between 1377 and 1418-25 is a long time. It's natural to assume, that there had been in this period other experimental decks, which varied the structure and the iconography. It's natural to assume, that also the number of suits was not always fixed. Decks with 5 and 6 suits had been already mentioned by Johannes of Rheinfelden. It's natural to assume already then the existence of decks, in which one suit was completely defined as trump.
These "very plausible" early experimental decks (likely) didn't become "main stream" or "second main stream". For the Italian development we have, that the Trionfi genre developed to a second main stream, finally called Tarocchi. This started already in the 1450s in "Trionfi time", from the Esch report and its many import numbers for the city Rome in the years 1453-1465 we definitely know of a greater market participation of this genre.
http://trionfi.com/n/130902/
Well, we still don't really know, what these Trionfi cards in this second early period looked like. As a long time result we have that Tarocchi (4x14 + 22) and Minchiate/Germini (4x14 + 41) became the most successful versions (whereby there were times, when it was occasionally spoken of Minchiate and Tarocchi, and not vice versa; begin of 18th century).
There are lot of strange things in the biography of Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta. Perhaps also in the whole Malatesta family, already before SPM was born.
We have, that Parisina Malatesta became a woman in a big public scandal (1425), and that she appeared in the early Ferrarese playing card documents as the dominant commissioner.
The whole 14th century Malatesta family was well known for their family scandals. Family scandals were somehow typical in this time ... (the situation of 1300 knew about 300 states in Italy, which were reduced by interfering fights and peace agreements to much less states during 15th century; this process often had bloody family details).
A deciding man might have been Carlo Malatesta (June 1368 – 13 September 1429), who presented one of the 3 current popes during the council of Constance. He quickly offered, that his pope would retire, so it was easy with him (much more difficulties with the both others). Likely he got a lot of friendly faces in Constance. He got the nice sides of this council.
He returned to Italy and it happened, that Dufay, a famous musician, followed him to Italy, which is seen as a major import of culture to Italy (which changed a lot).
Possibly Carlo got other "cultural impressions of Constance", which he imported to Italy, possibly German ways how to play with cards and these ways might have made a difference at the courts of the Malatesta. So the Malatesta might have had a closer relationship to playing cards than other noble families, perhaps the story, that the Malatesta had a German origin once played a role in this identification.
Possibly Parasina's exalted interests in cards depended on the German impressions of Carlo.
When the Michelino deck was possibly created (Summer till Winter 1424/25) Carlo had been honored prisoner and guest at the court of Filippo Maria Visconti, and there was friendship between the both (which is rare for Filippo Maria Visconti). Possibly they played cards and had other communications a longer time, a sort of longer holidays in the dry and sad life of Filippo Maria Visconti. In this period Filippo Maria's female partner became pregnant and he naturally expected a male heir, which would have solved a lot of problems. As we know, it became a girl. But the hope likely caused, that Filippo Maria had a better mood in this time as usual.
In the time, when Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta married a Ferrarese daughter (Ginevra, from Parisina) in 1433/34 there was a theater festivity in Ferrara, which used 16 Greek gods. This looks, as if the content of the Michelino deck with its 16 Greek gods was known in Ferrara and was imitated in a new own interpretation and in another medium (theater).
In September 1440 SP Malatesta got the first Trionfi deck we know of. A month later Ginevra, wife of SPM, was dead. Later commentaries had the opinion, that SPM had killed her, and that SPM also killed Polissena, daughter of Francesco Sforza, his second wife.
In this time Bianca Maria Visconti had visited the court of Ferrara and stayed for a half year (October 1440 - March 1441). The news of Ginevra's death must have reached the young girls at the Ferrarese court in this time. At 1.1.1441 there's some suspicion, that playing cards ("14 figure") had been produced by the later Trionfi card painter Sagramoro as a present for Bianca Maria.
Well, that's a dark mystery around this death of Ginevra.
Rosanne
Well in Biblical fashion the last thing shall be first lol!
Malatesta: He fascinates me! His marriage to Ginevra was incestous, but the scandal of 1425 Parasina and Ugo was not actually incestuous as they had no kinship. It amazes me there appears not have been censure over Malatesta marrying his neice. Poor girl- not having a legitimate son was most likely her death reason, whereas the death of Sforza's daughter seems a more long term 'pay back' and there is some thought that maybe it was plague and not strangling- but who knows? More interesting is the info about the...
Well for me, the successful version that has become Tarot is the ongoing mystery. I mean mystery as to why it became successful. I would think it is more about the images themselves and their ability to be memorised than any other consideration(I include in that remark 'not their spiritual content'). More profit in looking at the art- than the sequence from a historical perspective. For example the Michelino 16 Gods are really hard to see in a sequence, in a hand. Philosophically the Roman Gods might be a better game, but their depiction makes that not actual.
A small note: I do read voraciously, other forums and I know others do as well. Here on Aeclectic, I appreciate the transfer of information, as here is more conducive to happiness in a forum somehow. For me it is easier to post without trepidation and angst.
Thanks Huck!
~Rosanne
Malatesta: He fascinates me! His marriage to Ginevra was incestous, but the scandal of 1425 Parasina and Ugo was not actually incestuous as they had no kinship. It amazes me there appears not have been censure over Malatesta marrying his neice. Poor girl- not having a legitimate son was most likely her death reason, whereas the death of Sforza's daughter seems a more long term 'pay back' and there is some thought that maybe it was plague and not strangling- but who knows? More interesting is the info about the...
Well for me, the successful version that has become Tarot is the ongoing mystery. I mean mystery as to why it became successful. I would think it is more about the images themselves and their ability to be memorised than any other consideration(I include in that remark 'not their spiritual content'). More profit in looking at the art- than the sequence from a historical perspective. For example the Michelino 16 Gods are really hard to see in a sequence, in a hand. Philosophically the Roman Gods might be a better game, but their depiction makes that not actual.
A small note: I do read voraciously, other forums and I know others do as well. Here on Aeclectic, I appreciate the transfer of information, as here is more conducive to happiness in a forum somehow. For me it is easier to post without trepidation and angst.
Thanks Huck!
~Rosanne
Huck
I could give you a link, but according some angst conditions, which make me remember the alcohol prohibition phase in US America in the 1920s, I cannot ...
a "Ferrara mascerade with Huck" in a not restricted search engine might guide you to the promised country.
What's so difficult with the order of the Michelino?
We have 4 suits as common. Virtues - Riches - Virginity - Pleasure.
In the row of virginity - which is the most easy - we have (logically) four virgins: Minerva-Diana-Vesta-Daphne
In the row of pleasures we have Venus - Bacchus (Drinking) - Ceres (Eating) - Amor. This isn't too difficult. Ceres is a little bit surprising, but finally also logical.
Logically Jupiter must be the first, and similar logical Juno must get the second place.
Then 10 figures are defined. The rest must be filled. The more positive become "virtues" (Apollo - Mercury - Hercules), the more negative become riches (Neptun-Mars-Aeolos).
"Riches" as suit title is confusing, perhaps we should better think of "4 elements"
Earth = Juno
Neptun = Water
Mars = Fire
Aeolos = Air
Virtues ...
Jupiter = Justice
Hercules = Fortitudo
Apollo = Temperance ??? or Prudentia ???
Mercury = Prudentia ??? or Temperancia ???
That's a little bit not clear ...
Let's look at the vertical rows:
Row 2:
Apollo ??? .... Temperance has water
Neptun = Water
Diana = Moon and Moon stands for Water
Bacchus = Drinking = Wine = something liquid
Row 3:
Mercury ??? ... Prudentia has a dragon and a dragon spits fire
Mars = Fire
Vesta = clearly Fire
Ceres = ... well, not so clearly Fire, but why not, she stands for eating, and then you need a cook and the cook needs fire
Not so bad arranged.
Generally there was the interest to have the 12 Olympians at the begin of the row (at the picture 1-12, but in the reality of the later Tarot one has to change this to 16-5, cause Tarot had the high trumps above):
So as the basic partition we see this ...
16 god - 12 god - 08 god - 04 (more human)
15 god - 11 god - 07 god - 03 (more human)
14 god - 10 god - 06 god - 02 (more human)
13 god - 09 god - 05 god - 01 (more human)
... well, this looks like the begin of the "4 Papi" in Tarot and also for the playing card tradition to express the lowest court cards with more humor than the others.
The production of the Michelino deck followed the condition, that Poggio had detected the Manilius manuscript in Germany during the council in a cloister library. The Manilius manuscript became later the model for the Schifanoia pictures, at least in the major part (the zodiac). The manuscript connected the 12 Olympian gods to the zodiac.
The text must have been a big, not expected, surprise for all the astrologers, especially at the Milanese court, where astrologers played a major role (especially Martianus of Tortona, the author himself).
When the new elected pope Martin returned to Italy, he first visited Filippo Maria Visconti in Milan ... so the astrological bomb appeared immediately. We must see the Michelino deck as a reaction on the Manilius manuscript. Rather obviously the Milanese astrologers weren't in total agreement with the new order of the important astrological system.
We've a price connected to the deck: 1500 ducats
The price is so much above the average level, that - if one takes this information serious - one has to calculate, there must have been a lot of more work behind it, than just the cards and a small text with few pages only.
If there had been a complex scholar work in the background, which gave the clear result, that the new found Manilius text would be wrong, and the truth about the old gods system was different, then the price becomes more understandable. Perhaps Filippo Maria Visconti had a great plan with it, which never was proceeded finally. Martiano da Tortona died, and politically Filippo Maria might have had many plans for a lucky future in his successful year 1425, which all not realized, as the new war with Venice starting at the end of the year made him a loser for the rest of his life. Till 1425 Filippo Maria had been rather successful and expanding. For 1425 it was realistic, that Filippo Maria might realize his father Giangaleazzo's old plan to get a kingdom in Italy for the Visconti.
