Gypsyspell
Thanks Bee
The Four Humours
kwaw
Gypsyspell said:
It doesn't really make elemental correlations, unless that it is each humor is defined by the element it is missing (as each has a correlation with three of the signs). That is, according to the illustration:
Sanguin corresponds to the spring quarter, spring equinox to summer solstice ~
Aries - Fire
Taurus - Earth
Gemini - Air
Thus it has no correlation with any water sign in the illustration;
Choleric to the summer quarter, summer solstice to autumn equinox ~
Cancer - Water
Leo - Fire
Virgo - Earth
Thus it has no correlation with any air sign in the illustration;
Melancholic to the autumn quarter, autumn equinox to winter solstice ~
Libra - air
Scorpio - water
sagittarius - fire
Thus it has no correlation with any earth sign in the illustration;
Phlegmatic to the winter quarter, winter solstice to spring equinox ~
Capricorn - earth
Aquarius - air
Pisces - water
Thus it has no correlation with any fire sign in the illustration.
The sanguin and choleric (spring equinox to fall equinox) correspond to the male side of the body, and the bird flying upwards from the jar in his left hand signifies and upward flow; the melancholic and phlegmatic to the female side of the figures body, and the bird flying from the jar in her right hand a downward flow. The illustration is too small for me to make out the writing on the two jars at the bottom, or be clear about the symbols at their mouth, the one on the right hand bottom could be the symbol for venus or mercury, though I can't make out the crescent that would indicate mercury. The one on the left, an upside down symbol for sulfur?
Gypsyspell
Yes, the symbolism does not have a system,-with the humours/elements-the zodiac symbolism appears random in my opinion also.
kwaw
kwaw said:
On the basis of flow suggested by the upward and downward birds from the jars in the figures hand one could make a correlation with the suits on the basis of the pips traditional ascending and descending orders, and of their traditional division into two sets of male/female, good/bad. Like the traditional division, the rising side is male, just as the male suits (black/long) ascend in order; the falling side is female, just as the female suits (red/short or circular) descend in order.
The spring and summer signs (aries to virgo) and humors (sanguin and choleric) that flow upwards with the suits in ascending order, ace to ten, the black suits (clubs and swords) of the french suited cards and long suits (batons and swords) of the latin. The autumn and winter signs (libra to pisces) and humours (melancholic and phlegmatic) with the suits in descending order ten to ace, the red suits (hearts and diamonds) of the french suited cards, short suits (coins and cups) of the latin. (This goes somewhat against my inclination to align the short/red suits with spring/summer/day and the long/black suits with autumn/winter/night).
Gypsyspell
Plus--According to the author, this is the intention-to make those correspondences. --(maybe it is the element that is missing?)
What the creator of the engraving had in mind ?
What the creator of the engraving had in mind ?
kwaw
Bernice said:
Does Gosselin make the above correlation between french and latin suits? And between elements and humors? Or just between french suits and elements?
kwaw
kwaw said:
quote:
“Firstly, it will be seen, that in a common pack of cards there are four types of characters: which are Tiles, Clovers, Hearts and Pikes. These show us the four Elements, of which all natural things are composed…
— The Tiles, [Diamonds] which are depicted on the cards, signify the earth: for just as the earth sustains all heavy things, so the tiles are used to bear the heavy things placed on top of them.
— The Clovers, [Clubs] which are depicted on the cards, represent water: for the reason that the clover is an herb that flourishes in moist places, and is nourished by means of the water that makes it grow.
— The Hearts, which are depicted on the cards, signifies to us air: since our hearts could not live without air.
— The Pikes, [Spades] which are depicted on the cards, represents to us fire: for just as fire is the most penetrating of the Elements, so the Pikes are very penetrating weapons of war; and with each of the above-said characters are marked thirteen cards in a deck, which gives the sum of fifty-two cards.”
(From a TarotL post by Ross Caldwell; quoted from Franco Pratesi in Jean-Marie Lhôte, Dictionnaire des jeux de Société, note 18 page 652.)
End quote
No mention of the latin suits or humors in Gosselin; rather they have been linked by cross reference with other sources such as the shepherd's calendar image cited by Mel & Ayumi showing element & humor correspondences together with emblems that link in with latin suits:
http://www.tarotforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=16316
Bernice
kwaw said:
Hi Kwaw,
It was later discovered that the translation of Tiles to Diamonds was a mis-translation. The word 'tiles' apparently refers to the suit of what we call 'clubs'.
Please note that I added the " = humour" to clarify my post for the previous poster with regard to the humours. The original quote did not include the temperaments/humours. Just want to make that clear.
Bee.
kwaw
Bernice said:
I did not know that, thanks. So Gosselin did not use the standard french names for the cards?* What terms did he use, do you know? (Carreau usually refers to tiles/diamonds). Have you any links that reference the mistranslation?
His correspondence appears to be based on a correlation with 'natural' elements rather than humors or temperament (clovers/trefle correspond with water because clovers grow near water; tiles correspond with earth because like earth they bear weight etc.,)
Using his 'tiles' (that bear a heavy weight) with clubs/clovers makes nonsense of his correspondence surely?
There are some pictures of gaming books including Gosselin's here that may be of interest to some:
http://www-bsg.univ-paris1.fr/la_reserve/expos/jeu/enseignes.htm
The menu in the drop down box: selectionner une section de l'exposition : has a number of interesting pages with gaming manuscripts, here is another page for example:
http://www-bsg.univ-paris1.fr/la_reserve/expos/jeu/marque.htm
Kwaw
*
Trefle = clover/clubs
Carreau = tiles/diamonds
Couer = hearts
Pique = pike/spades
Bernice
There is a fairly recent thread (this year for certain) that explains the mis-translation - will search it out shortly.
In the meantime Marco posted a link to an english translation (old english) of Cesare Ripas' 'Iconoglia'. The four humours are referred to as Complexions.
http://emblem.libraries.psu.edu/Ripa/Images/ripa015a.htm
Click 'next page' to see the pics.
Bee
EDIT: Been searching. Cannot find the mis-translation post. From memory, it was to do with translating from latin to ..... french (I think it was french...). Plus the translators name was mentioned -----. (pulling hair...)
In the meantime Marco posted a link to an english translation (old english) of Cesare Ripas' 'Iconoglia'. The four humours are referred to as Complexions.
http://emblem.libraries.psu.edu/Ripa/Images/ripa015a.htm
Click 'next page' to see the pics.
Bee
EDIT: Been searching. Cannot find the mis-translation post. From memory, it was to do with translating from latin to ..... french (I think it was french...). Plus the translators name was mentioned -----. (pulling hair...)
