Getting published

Kitch said:

Anyway, I'm starting to consider options for publishing and am wondering whether anyone can recommend certain tarot publishers to look into?

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Hi there and welcome. The Gilded was published by Llewellyn, my experience with them was very positive. They allowed me every artistic freedom with minimum interference. Which considering that I am no tarot expert was considerate on their part. It would be unethical for me to publicly discuss any of the financial arrangements, but if you care to pm, I'd be quite happy to share some insights with you.

Having said that I'm publishing the follow up deck myself. So i can also add some insight to the pros and cons of that as a comparison.

Last but nor least I should add, that in strictly economic terms, however you decide to proceed, i.e. royalties from a major publisher or go it alone, do it for the love, personal satisfaction, or whatever, because financially in either case I would have earned more per hour serving hamburgers

I get the impression sometimes from this forum in particular, that the amount of work is seriously underestimated when someone is still enthusiastically producing the third or fourth card, serious doubts sink in around about half way through the Majors, and then, if you go in that order, by the time you start on the two of cups you actually feel like the ten of swords, and have completely given up on the dreams of the ten of coins.

Just kidding...but just make sure its fun....

Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone. Also cheers for your personal insight, cirom, I'm probably in a similar situation. As my knowledge of tarot isn't fully fledged, the project is more of a chance to learn about tarot and apply my own interpretation. I started it because I wanted to make the first deck I own, and have been using others' decks and resources for reference.

It's a pretty simplistic deck, moreso analagous of modern life than deeply symbolic - but I feel the end result will be very user friendly for people like myself that want to get started on tarot.

If I can get to the conference, I'll definately bring mockups of some cards I've completed, but I'm not quite ready to release them online.

cirom said:

do it for the love, personal satisfaction, or whatever, because financially in either case I would have earned more per hour serving hamburgers

I get the impression sometimes from this forum in particular, that the amount of work is seriously underestimated when someone is still enthusiastically producing the third or fourth card, serious doubts sink in around about half way through the Majors, and then, if you go in that order, by the time you start on the two of cups you actually feel like the ten of swords, and have completely given up on the dreams of the ten of coins.

Just kidding...but just make sure its fun....

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Hah! Big grin! Have to say I agree with both points. However last time I said in public that the profit from tarot decks is very low, I immediately ran across someone saying online that I was just whinging because I was a spoilt Westerner :-( No, in fact I don't live in the West, and even here, the profit from making a deck is low compared to waiting on tables.

I think it's not a bad thing for a few of us to keep saying this, because although it can sound dispiriting, it's not meant that way - and it's better to know the realities. I think one of the funniest pms I got on AT was someone (who has since vanished by the way) asking if I was a millionaire from Tarot of Prague yet. Anyone here who has published a deck will appreciate the joke.

But designing your own deck is still a GREAT thing to do - I couldn't agree more that whether you finish the full deck or not, there's a lot of learning and satisfaction from the process - far more than from serving burgers . It absolutely changed me as a reader - it made me see the cards in a very different way and I think, apart from anything else, I've been reading more insightfully since.

Our story is that we decided firmly at the outset to publish Tarot of Prague ourselves - we didn't do any submissions. With the Baroque Bohemian Cats we were in fact unexpectedly offered a publishing deal (one of "the big three" approached us after seeing some cards online) but we turned it down as we felt for all sorts of reasons we'd rather carry on on our own (nothing against the publisher, they could not have been nicer or fairer). But I wouldn't generalise about the advantages of one way or the other, it so much depends what you want in the end. Some people feel there is more prestige in going with an established publisher, but more control in doing it yourself. Honestly, it seems to me to be swings and roundabouts.

baba-prague said:

just whinging because I was a spoilt Westerner :-( No, in fact I don't live in the West, and even here, the profit from making a deck is low compared to waiting on tables.

I was a millionaire from Tarot of Prague yet. .

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Yes I've had similar love letters as well, with different twists on the basic message, questioning my commercial motivation.
From the "obscene" price of my LE Gilded Tarot (You try printing, gluing, laminating and hand trimming 78 cards honey pie)
To "You're only a member here to promote your work, so you should accept any negaitve comments that come your way" I'll give you two guesses who wrote that one.

Some months ago, I communicated with Jeanette over at the TarotGarden (what a nice lady by the way) she provided me with some background statistics, that were a wake up call. Based on those statistics, I calculated that the project I was working on (Tarot of Dreams) would have to sell more than three times that of any self published deck she has ever dealt with, something that is hardly likely to happen, or certainly not realistic to expect......just for me to cover my production costs (My wife is going to go ballistic when she realizes this). And of course that does'nt even factor in my time. I've pretty much taken a year off from "paid" work to dedicate to this.
OK I admit this an extreme example because the companion CD production (programming, scripting, testing, royalty rights on music, blah, blah, blah, are not the norm. So all you fellow deck designers can get up off the floor now) But essentially the message is the same. Its very satisfying business, but in most cases not a financially justifyable one, and one should be under no illusions about that.

By the way Kitch, got your pm and will respond later in the day.

cirom said:

Based on those statistics, I calculated that the project I was working on (Tarot of Dreams) would have to sell more than three times that of any self published deck she has ever dealt with, something that is hardly likely to happen, or certainly not realistic to expect......just for me to cover my production costs (My wife is going to go ballistic when she realizes this.

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Well, you never know, it's going to be a well-received deck that's for sure. Anyway, I hope you break the record (and your wife forgives you ).

Edited to add. By the way, I don't think the person who wrote asking if I was a millionaire was trying to be nasty or anything. It was just honest naivity. People imagine that we all sell hundreds of thousands of decks or something - sadly it isn't so.

and I hope I never have to say that here again. Honestly, I do get tired of saying it! I feel it makes me sound like a damp squib, but all I'm trying to say is that there are other rewards. I am a FAR, far better reader for having designed decks (don't know if that always applies but it did for me). I've met some amazing people through doing this, some of whom have become good friends. It has really stretched us illustration-wise, and put us in a much better position to begin doing books, textiles and all the other things the studio is now involved in. Plus we have had a great time!

So - it's nearly all positive. But it's just not all that lucrative. (and please, please, don't anyone ask me this question by pm again )

I'll be the first to say 'don't quit your day job'. Oh yeah! With the time that goes in, I figured it was more a private hobby for me, I didn't count ANY of the time except the computer clean up (and that was just out of curiosity--I stopped counting at 90 hours, though it was done in 2 hour increments usually). I've put 60 hours in on decorating a vest with couching technique, so it's comparable to home time hobbywork I guess.

Do it for the fun of it. Do it for the learning. Do NOT do it as a financial reason to make yourself a bunch of money because it's not going to make anyone rich. Besides, the money you make after the break even costs ends up going to fund the next printing. Right?

HudsonGray said:

...besides, the money you make after the break even costs ends up going to fund the next printing. Right?

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So true. It's all about the next project.

I came across this thread looking for information about royalties and such.
Here is my experience of publishing:

I've published a nonfiction book, which shall remain nameless as my 'other life' is rather high-profile on the net and I wish to keep the two separate. It took three months of on a horrendous deadline, battline with an ignorant publisher who knew nothing about art, plus further months of edits and back-and-forth before it went to print. I earned ten thousand US dollars, flat fee, no royalties. (any deals involving royalties give you lower upfront fees). And they own the copyright - I've already seen excerpts of my work appearing in magazines. (with my words edited by someone else but attributed to me). Edits that I fought against - like having to cut 'arty' words, having an insanely high word count (people want pictures!) and what was to be cut, or not, (they cut pictures and bits out of step-by-steps) - resulted in a product that I'm not happy with, but my name is associated with it, and I wear the bad reviews with the good.

Ten thousand sounds like a lot, but if I was working full-time at any other job (with my degree quals and experience) I'd have earned three times that. Yes, publishing is a labor of love for most people.

I noticed in another thread that someone commented on artists 'slacking off' in some cards. But think about it:

78 cards. .... 39 working weeks in a year (reasonable, given holidays, kids being sick, other real life stuff).
That's a complete work of art every working week for two years. A lifelike, complex, fully researched and meaningful work of art. And unless you are cloning the RWS, original and inspired. Its a HUGE undertaking. A decent artist's salary for two years: lets say, sixty thousand would be reasonable, for a university graduate with years of experience. So that's 120 000 just for your artwork, not including materials and production costs. ....

we should be glad we ever see an original deck!

at any rate, after conversations with a colleague who self-published his book, I'll go that route if I ever create my own tarot. I don't want to have to deal with a publisher.

best
Euri

One should make art for free.....for themselves. Money is nice, but it should be an afterthought

I earned ten thousand US dollars, flat fee, no royalties. (any deals involving royalties give you lower upfront fees). And they own the copyright -

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this is not generally true.. for most publishers..my experience is different

I'm author of 10 books (and 100 magazine articles).. all are non-fiction. some are technical.. some are metaphysical.... all published by well-known publishers..

1. I got an advance of $10,000 to $15,000 for each book upfront, generally 1/4 or 1/3 early .. the rest as the book is completed
2. I get royalities (usually 10%, and now I get a sliding scale increase as (IF) sales pass certain numbers i.e 100,000)
3. I OWN THE COPYRIGHT of every book (except the first one, I didn't realize that I could get that option)) in any case the book ownership should revert to you when out of print..

High pressure deadlines for delivery is normal.. they will drag on forever setting up the agreement.. then bind you (in contact) to delivery in a few months (at most) .. sometimes with penalty $$$$ from late delivery..

NOW I do have more sympathy for the publishers (not much) because
I now own part of a small publishing business... and am learning how difficult complex it all is...

have published
OH, ___ IMPORTANT NOTE:

an agent was essential.. they were able to strong-arm the publishers for me.. while the agent got a percentage of my percentage.. they are able to get a better royality rate.. that was higher .. even with their cut included..
and they are very good at getting larger advances..

my first book was lower rates, copyright owned by the publisher etc. etc.. but I was contacted by an agent that let me know that I could do much better on the next contracts.. and they provided worthwhile