The Game of Tarots - Antoine Court de Geblin

frelkins

Mabuse, I have travelled widely in Europe, and I am well aware that the card game is alive and well, esp. online, and among people of all ages. Actually I would have little doubt saying that more people play the game in Europe than divine with cards there. The occult tarot and the culture we most commonly see here around it on AT [removed by moderator] is predominant only in the UK, USA, and Australia.

While occult tarot grows in popularity in Asia, I think those using it in Asia have little understanding of the Golden Dawn. They are forming their own culture around it, largely having to do with comic books.

The occult culture [reworded by moderator] does largely deny the existence of the game culture, and appears completely unaware of the growing Asian culture. [removed by moderator]

[removed by moderator]

I myself collect cards as a hobby only, and I like the historical decks because I find them quite charming. That's really all I do here, tho' "reading" cards can be fun, when people ask me to do it for them, since I have so many. :D
 

Teheuti

Actually this thread is about Antoine Court de Gébelin. It seems it has been hijacked by those who think tarotists should not read this work for themselves and only be familiar with it through Dummett.

I have nothing against the game of tarot. I have taught it in classes. I speculated in one, single post that it might not have lasted as a game without the popularity of fortune telling, but I could well have been wrong and am willing to admit that. I never said it as a fact but only as a point of curiosity since I've seen many other games and cultural artifacts practically disappear in my lifetime.

It is the tarot game players who regularly go out on the web to bemoan the game's lack of popularity in English speaking countries.



Mary
 

Mabuse

Mary Greer doesn't deny the existence of Tarot playing. I am a Tarot player who reads her blog on a somewhat regular basis.

Here's at least two posts on the game of Tarot.
http://marygreer.wordpress.com/2008/10/14/simplified-game-of-tarot/
http://marygreer.wordpress.com/2010/05/15/tarot-was-originally-a-game/

Let's also mention Corrine Kenner, author of Tarot for Writers. She has also organized French Tarot game events in her town!

http://www.meetup.com/twincitiestarot/calendar/7974298/?from=list&offset=0

As a game player, I have more problems with corporate media such as Beliefnet.com than with most divination authors.
 

philebus

Teheuti said:
Philebus said:
You seem to assume here that tarot was in danger of disappearing from popular use!

I said "might have disappeared." Having lived in Germany in the 1950s I've seen quite a few traditions nearly disappear since then. My former mother-in-law from a small town in Poland commented on how many games she played were no longer familiar to today's youth. Just a couple of months ago a linguist who did her graduate work in the Languedoc regions said how she no longer sees the old men playing tarot in the cafes like she did forty years ago. It was these old men in the mountain villages who first told her that tarot was invented by a woman who was burned as a heretic and that they contained Cathar secrets.

I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make here. You mention Germany, where that has indeed been a decline in tarot games, along with an account of how occult myths have been adopted by some people. That seems to undermine your position. Conversely, you mention Poland, where I am happy to report, tarot has been taken up during the last 10 years and seems to be spreading.


Teheuti said:
Philebus said:
much of Europe had already begun to innovate with new designs, giving rise to huge variation that continues to this day.

What new designs emerged in the late 18th century specifically for playing the game? French-style pips had already been invented. Are you referring to the Gumppenberg decks from Milan? I would call them stylistically different rather than new designs. The Swiss decks with Juno and Jupiter could be considered new designs, I suppose.

However, the Tarot Nouveau (and Jeu de Tarot) which is the primary deck type used for playing tarot in France didn't emerge until the late 19th century in Germany.

It was in Germany, at the beginning of the 18th century, that tarot packs began to be produced using the French suits and a wide range of themes for the trumps - from animals through to local landmarks. I would call that creative innovation and while the Austrians and Hungarians have not settled upon some standard designs, the French have now taken up the creative baton.

Teheuti said:
Philebus said:
You also seem to assume that tarot could not have spread beyond the continent without occultism. That requires some argument and I would speculate from experience that the occult myths have hindered the spread of the games.

We can speculate all we want but we'll never know for sure.

The point perhaps is that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Your undermining my speculation undermines your own.

Teheuti said:
Philebus said:
As for those countries that still retain the Italian trumps, it is legitimate to wonder if they would be seeing the same decline in game play were it not the for the myths, which have supplanted the history in their culture.

Considering that card games of all kinds are rampant on the net, and game nights are springing up in every community, and Germany has experienced a huge renaissance in card and board games (several friends of mine are very active involved in buying and playing them), I would think that if tarot were attractive to modern game-players they would have picked it up quickly. The decks used are different enough that I don't see why it would be a problem.

I'm not sure why you think that Germany is relevant to my point - Italian suits and trumps have not been used there since about 70 years before the myths began in France and other countries that adopted French suits at that time are still playing the games, and sometimes enjoying their own renaissance (particularly Austria and Hungary).

Teheuti said:
Philebus said:
Of course, spread and creativity are not goods in themselves and calling the spread of a myth and the practice of divination good requires some further argument.

There are no absolute values here. Some consider the use of tarot for fortune telling or occult purposes to be good and some don't. Big deal. But there is no denying that these 'new' uses have spread because a lot of people find them interesting.

Actually, I do think that this is a "big deal". Some people's lives are influenced by their beliefs in divination, sometimes the influence is small but sometimes it is great and to their detriment. That matters to me.

Teheuti said:
Philebus said:
And as for interpreting the myths as allegory, let's not forget that they were not intended as allegory but are being re-described as such post Dummett & Co in order to preserve them long after they should have been put to rest. Their value as allegory rests first upon whatever we propose that it is about and how well it represents it. My first caution is that even if you start with a good idea (which again, requires further argument) you must then try to fit it to something not intended to contain it and end up with a poor fit or a corrupt idea. If you have an idea, first justify it as good and then create your own allegory and clearly call it such - if only to put and end to the misconceptions about tarot history that still endure.

I'm afraid I can't understand what you are saying here. Can anyone else explain? If you are saying that interpreting myths as allegory is something that never existed prior to Dummett, then you are wrong. Jung was doing it early in this century, and it's been a part of literary criticism for a very long time. Just because no one has published such an allegorical analysis of the de Gébelin myth doesn't mean that people have looked at it in that way. In fact, I started discussing the allegory in the myths in my tarot classes when I was teaching tarot in colleges in the 1970s.

Some of this seems a little fatuous. I have re-read my post and don't find it that hard to understand. Your post suggests that you think I am talking of myths in general, while I am specifically talking of the myths of tarot's origin and questioning the value of re-interpreting them as allegory. Does that help?
 

Sophie

Debra said:
Reading tarot cards is a form of game playing, anyway.
I was wondering when someone was going to say that. Yes, it is!

Rachel Pollack riffed on that theme in Forest of Souls - a book where she plays with all the myths - and compared tarot reading and gambling - united by Hermes Thoth, god of gambling as much as he is god of divination, writing, reason and magic. Trouble is, most people like their worldview neatly packed in a single box, and the idea that gambling and divination might actually be very similar and have similar origins is anathema to most game players and most diviners.


Well, except for those of us who do both and can easily entertain 6 impossible ideas before breakfast ;). Cultural history that isn't actually rooted in cultures - with all their imperfect, imaginative, mythical and schizophrenic developments - seems a sham to me. Court de Gebelin was a man of his time, of his culture - and his contribution to tarot history is to have rewired tarot entirely and changed its course forever.

Writing a tarot history without the myths, without an understanding of the occult - and the creative impulses the myths and the occult have generated - would be like trying to write a history of the love poem without knowing love or acknowledging the millions of shades and inventions of love.
 

Huck

The first 5 at the news from google.fr (France) with keyword "Tarot" are today ...

http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/201...uve-d-Aveyron-Le-Tarot-Club-en-assemblee.html
related to Tarot playing

http://www.ouest-france.fr/actu/act...t-_22172-avd-20100511-58202760_actuLocale.Htm
related to Tarot playing

http://www.sudouest.fr/2010/05/17/l-association-des-familles-toujours-sur-le-pont-93590-4043.php
related to Tarot playing or divination ?

http://www.lindependant.com/articles/2010-05-17/argeles-sur-mer-permanence-caf-182301.php
related to Tarot playing

http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2010/05/12/833404-Anla-Soiree-amicale-de-tarot.html
related to Tarot playing

from the next 5 four relate to Tarot as game, one to a person with the name Tarot.

Most of the reports are results of card game tournaments. Totally "503" results.

******

In German language Tarot is usually used for divination and "Tarock" for the game. Though I'm not sure, if most people, which read cards, use Tarot or other decks, for instance a socalled "Lenormand" deck or "Kipper-Karten" or a normal playing card deck. In TV-divination often other cards are used.

In German Google News Tarock has "only 1" single entry, in the normal Google.de it gets 75.000 pages. Tarot gets 1.250.000 "pages in German language".
As comparison, other popular games get "in German language"
Skat: 550.000 results
Doppelkopf: 125.000 results
Schafkopf: 55.000 results

For the cards (German results):
"Tarotkarten": 150.000 results
"Lenormandkarten": 80.000 results
"Kipperkarten": 75.000 results


******

In English language the term "Tarot" is dominated by divination: "about 500" results in the News.

******

In Italy the word Tarot is not very much used, they prefer traditionally "Tarocchi", also for divination. 500.000 pages for "Tarocchi", 70.000 pages for "Tarot" in Italian language. 53 appearances for Tarocchi in Italian Google-News.

********

For Court de Gebelin in France: At French wikipedia article "Antoine Court de Gebelin" is a longer article, "Tarot" is mentioned ONLY ONCE in a footnote.

For Court de Gebelin in English wikipedia: The article is MUCH SHORTER than his French counter part, but it contains the word "Tarot" 10 TIMES.
 

Rosanne

Thank you for that information Moonbow.

Now that post of Huck's makes fascinating reading.

Especially this....
For Court de Gebelin in France: At French wikipedia article "Antoine Court de Gebelin" is a longer article, "Tarot" is mentioned ONLY ONCE in a footnote.

This forum is a bubble, as I mentioned before.
There is a whole world out there of Tarot that does not get mentioned here,
and it skews our view. Conversely there are places were Tarot Divination style is of no import at all.

Now for my little corner of the world- New Zealand Tarot Divination is thought of as OK- a fringe practice like Herbal medicine- in fact the two can often be found together in the same place. Card playing Tarot is unheard of generally, but I know some people who place it online- but they also play Bridge online.
To everyone here, that I have had contact with concerning Tarot- it is understood that it is a Renaissance game that grew a new hat a couple of hundred years ago.

So Diviners here you are in a bubble......thats OK if that's your thing- but if elsewhere like the USA'ers and Englanders have a problem with the game because they think it is the Devil's picture book- put that down squarely at ignorances door. Let them know if you can be bothered- "you got that wrong Brother! (and Sister)" Or maybe we need to have someone like Lady GaGa let out that she play's the Game of Tarot -bothways.

~Rosanne
 

coredil

I make an assumption:
I guess that every native-french-speaker who reads Gébelin and also Etteilla in original will at least have some doubts on what may have been their real motivation to write such stories.

Please correct me if I am false :)

I am native-french speaker and I have read Gébelin as well as Etteilla in original .

Indeed Gébelins style is much clearer than Etteilla's which is so confusing and complicated!
But to me both have theories that I would qualify with the word "abracadabrantesque" and I really have the biggest difficulty to believe that there could be someone who can take Gébelins writing or Etteillas writing for serious.
Of course this is a very personal opinion, but I would be very interested to hear the thoughts of the french-native speaker on AT.

Reading the english translation it sounds to me quite nice but the underlying story still stays abracadabrantesque.

I would be interested to read an english translation of Etteilla :)
Maybe it does not sound so crazy any more!
but I can assure you, it is not really funny to read Etteilla :D
BTW Paul Marteau has also a quite heavy style.

Thanks to Huck for his interesting down to earth approach!

My very first Tarot deck (maybe 40 years ago) was a Tarot Game deck with a Suze advertising on it. The deck was probably from Grimaud.
Unfortunately I lost it.


Best regards

PS
The word "abracadabrantesque" was first introduced by Arthur Rimbaud and got some notoriety as Jacques Chirac used it publicly in the year 2000.
What does it means?
Well, just build an adjective with the magic word Abracadabra ;)
 

Rosanne

Well he was no different to many of the writers of the time, and possibly more educated than most.
Court de geblin is not even in my massive Dictionary of the Esoteric.

This is an extract from Wiki.....

His father was a famous religious leader of the Huguenots. Court de Gebelin had been ordained a pastor in 1754 before departing Switzerland and remained openly Protestant, a rational advocate for freedom of conscience in Enlightenment France. In Paris, he was initiated into Freemasonry at the lodge Les Amis Réunis, in 1771, and moved on to the lodge Les Neuf Sœurs where he welcomed Benjamin Franklin as a lodge-brother. He was a supporter of American Independence who contributed to the massive Affaires de L'Angleterre et de l'Amérique, of the new theories of economics, and of the "animal magnetism" of Mesmer .......

For his time not so abracadabra- ish. It is different looking backwards at works that were accepted in their time with the knowledge of today in our heads. Exotic lands and people were all the rage in the 18th century.

His great project had for its goal to set out to reconstruct the high primeval civilization. Reinterpreting Classical and Renaissance evocation of the Golden Age in mankind's early history, Court de Gébelin asserted that the primitive worldwide civilization had been advanced and enlightened.

Well that view is still held today.

~Rosanne