Aeon418
You know what they say about an oral contract. It's not worth the paper it's written on. 
Mirror of the Soul
Lillie
*sigh*
That's not fair.
I love to have someone to blame if things go wrong....
That's not fair.
I love to have someone to blame if things go wrong....
Nininka
Aeon418 said:
Hello,
well after having read yours' and others' anwers I think that I simply might not have made it to the level you have made it to yet, and I will make it that far after I have made my way through many more books.
Perhaps you are right and I am not learning the Thoth from this book, but as a self growth book I still think it is excellent and from this perspective Arries at this stage offers me enough.
If one day I will see the wrong of it when it comes to the Thoth I wonder.
Maybe yes, maybe not.
I guess this review might explain the best what I feel like, as a non-native English speaker my English is limited and I would not have said it better:
http://www.tarotpassages.com/leebk1.htm
BTW, what do you think of 78 Degrees of Wisdom by Rachel P. ?
I have heard a lof about this book, is it written specifically for a particular tarot deck or is this a tool to be used with any tarot ?
Thanks,
Katerina
Ross G Caldwell
Hi Katerina,
I think the problem with your approach for Thoth purists is not the idea that your personal growth will suffer from using Arrien's book with the Thoth, but that your *intellectual* growth with the Thoth will. Once you imprint certain ideas in your mind, make associations become immediate, it is very hard to overcome them.
But if your approach is that the deck can mean whatever you want it to, then Arrien's book shouldn't matter to you - you should actually study the deck without any book at all and make up YOUR OWN associations. I truly believe you will go much further, very much further, with personal growth this way - you will learn a lot about yourself. Crowley might have appreciated this method himself. This is really personal growth.
But people here aren't on a higher level or anything. The deck is really about you and your relationship with the universe - all *we* are trying to say (forgive my presumption) is that there is a certain amount of archaeology to be done, or genealogy if you like, before you're likely to be satisfied. And Arrien's book is really not about the Thoth, it is about Arrien.
So my advice, if you don't like Crowley's esotericism or Harris' questions about her paintings or DuQuette's synopsis of the intended meanings, is to just go about studying for yourself.
If you see a spiral, study about spirals. If you see a square, look up what squares mean in symbolism. If you see the color green, look up what green means, or just guess. Same with animals, birds, crystals, stars, whatever.
It is SO MUCH more important for you to study for yourself, then to take somebody else's second-hand vision and try to work with it.
Although you may share the reviewer's general sentiments, be careful about her facts. She suggests Gerd Ziegler may have "ripped off" Arrien!
In any case, the reviewer Michele Jackson has overstepped the bounds of evidence here.
Ross
Nininka said:
I think the problem with your approach for Thoth purists is not the idea that your personal growth will suffer from using Arrien's book with the Thoth, but that your *intellectual* growth with the Thoth will. Once you imprint certain ideas in your mind, make associations become immediate, it is very hard to overcome them.
But if your approach is that the deck can mean whatever you want it to, then Arrien's book shouldn't matter to you - you should actually study the deck without any book at all and make up YOUR OWN associations. I truly believe you will go much further, very much further, with personal growth this way - you will learn a lot about yourself. Crowley might have appreciated this method himself. This is really personal growth.
But people here aren't on a higher level or anything. The deck is really about you and your relationship with the universe - all *we* are trying to say (forgive my presumption) is that there is a certain amount of archaeology to be done, or genealogy if you like, before you're likely to be satisfied. And Arrien's book is really not about the Thoth, it is about Arrien.
So my advice, if you don't like Crowley's esotericism or Harris' questions about her paintings or DuQuette's synopsis of the intended meanings, is to just go about studying for yourself.
If you see a spiral, study about spirals. If you see a square, look up what squares mean in symbolism. If you see the color green, look up what green means, or just guess. Same with animals, birds, crystals, stars, whatever.
It is SO MUCH more important for you to study for yourself, then to take somebody else's second-hand vision and try to work with it.
Although you may share the reviewer's general sentiments, be careful about her facts. She suggests Gerd Ziegler may have "ripped off" Arrien!
In fact Ziegler's book was published in German in 1986, and in English translation in January of 1988. Arrien's first edition is 1987. What are the chances Arrien reads German, and ripped *Ziegler* off? Or was it just the same Zeitgeist?Michele Jackson said:
In any case, the reviewer Michele Jackson has overstepped the bounds of evidence here.
Ross
ravenest
Yes. My point exactly (actually every time someone attempts to paraphrase AC they seem to put a limit around his ideas), although relationship is unavoidible due to the metaphor he uses.Aeon418 said:
Aeon418 said:
Perhaps not, unless AC lived back then. Looking at the synthesis of concepts and dieties the Egyptians were prepared to accept (throughout time and location) they probably would have been delighted at Crowleys 'novel' approach.
Yes, but again the metaphor is Christian.Aeon418 said:
Aeon418
True. But what would happen if you were to base your interpretation solely on that metaphor, disregarding the Thelemic connection?ravenest said:
cheekyinchworm
Ross G Caldwell said:
Very nicely said, Ross! I like the spirit and friendliness of it. People are most definitely free to study the Thoth or any other Tarot deck from an entirely "intuitive" standpoint, just working out what the cards mean for themselves in their own way. And there's something to be said for doing this.
Of course, with the Thoth, to a certain extent, this would seem to me to be a little like learning a foreign language by just deciding what any given set of letters means to YOU. I know this sounds a bit harsh, and I don't mean it that way. I'm just trying to say that, for example, if you see an arrow symbol with a small hash mark through the middle of it, and decide that it means "the fiery spear of death and pestilence" that's all well and good, but, the symbol specifically and unequivocally means "Sagittarius", right? So why not at least learn about the things like that that appear in the Thoth Tarot?
Because if you DON'T, then it's exactly the same as seeing the letters D-E-B-A-U-C-H at the bottom of the card and deciding that they mean, for you, ascetecism and deprivation.
Mirror of the Soul doesn't even have one--NOT EVEN ONE--diagram of the Tree of Life. What's up with that? (Or did I perhaps just miss it?)
There are definite, clear, unambiguous symbolic things that appear in the Thoth Tarot. Doesn't it make sense to at least look up their meanings? Isn't it no different than looking up what the title of one of the cards means if you didn't know? (I suppose you could cut those pesky words off along with the borders.)
And then, from there, you can figure out what the meanings are for YOU, armed with what "debauch" means, and what Sagittarius and Scorpio "mean" and so on, as a starting point.
But using Mirror of the Soul or any other similar "Thoth" book (NOT!) is like ignoring all the things with definite meaning, AND ignoring what one's own small voice of intuition might tell one, all in favor of what someone else just happened to intuit in his or her experience with the Thoth Tarot cards. Just like you say in your post, Ross, this just seems a very strange thing to do. I totally agree.
Alta
This book is geared to RWS type decks. She may have the odd Thoth image in there and even mention it, but all her books aim towards to RWS set of meanings.Nininka said:
To read what others here think of it, go into Advanced Search, then use the Google seach Engine that Solandia installed recently. Type in
78 Degrees of Wisdom
and you will get many references from here on the Forums.
Jewel
Scion I love this book and this is the first time I have seen someone else mention it. It is a very easy read, and provides an easy introduction to Qabalah, which is why I purchased it in the first place.Scion said:Amen, Aeon.
Those two, hands down. There's one more, but almost not worth mentioning: Gerald Suster's The Truth about the Tarot is a nice little book by a smart, articulate Thelemite that's concise, user-friendly, and provides rules for an ingenious educational Qabalah-rummy... but it's hard as hell to find in the States, and has been essentially superceded by DuQuette's masterful intro.
Scion
ravenest
Aeon418 said:True. But what would happen if you were to base your interpretation solely on that metaphor, disregarding the Thelemic connection?
Well, you'd be a duffer then wouldn't you?
But really, you would have a strange Christian interpretation of the metaphor, not understanding what AC meant.
If you had the Thelemic interpretation without realising the Christian source you would have a limited understanding of Thelema and where AC was coming from.
I have to think that is important to know where AC and ones self has come from as he spent so much time teaching students and initiates Old Aeon stuff to give insight to 'where they came from.' (The 2nd most important question posed to initiates).
