Windhorse
Aeon418 said:Queen of Swords is Water of Air. Nut the airy sky goddess and a connection to the water of Aquarius. But also the letter Heh via the connection with the Ace of Cups.
Now I am intrigued - please elaborate on this....
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Aeon418 said:Queen of Swords is Water of Air. Nut the airy sky goddess and a connection to the water of Aquarius. But also the letter Heh via the connection with the Ace of Cups.
Intrigued about what in particular? Heh and the Ace of Cups?Windhorse said:Now I am intrigued - please elaborate on this....
ravenest said:Yes, well it's all very obvious ..... NOW!
That damned double loop in the zodiac thingo! I knew something was fishy but just couldn't get to the bottom of it. .... maybe because it is so simple? (well simpler than I thought it was! ... or maybe I'm just stupid
Bear with me a moment.
Go to the diagram of the double loop, Book of Thoth. Copy out the diagram accuratly (or be reckless and draw in your book like I did)
Write the number 1 next to IV (the lowest in the series of Roman Numerals shown) and go around the diagram attributing the next number (2) to the next highest Roman Numeral (V) and so on. Dont loop, go around the diagram in a circular path. Now do the same with the astrological signs in their order; 1 to Aries, 2 to Taurus, etc.. Now look at how the two sets of numbers you have written at each position compare with each other (starting from IV / Aries and going anti-clockwise); 1-1,12-12, 11-11, (left hand side) 2-2, 3-3, 4-4, 5-7, 6-6, 7-5 (right hand side) 8-8, 9-9, 10-10. The loop is only on one the right hand side where Adjustment / Lust trump number swap is. There is no left hand loop or double loop!
But it is even more obvious than this! The diagram is a number / astrological order diagram, the right hand side is a loop because it is a number / astrological order switch. The left hand side cant loop as it is a Hebrew letter switch that cannot show up on the diagram as it is out of the reference field (ie, the diagram is not referenced to Hebrew letters - that is why the switch of Emperor / Tzaddi show on the Tree of Life as that IS a Hebrew letter reference field).
Crowley tweaked the loop on the left hand side himself, just by , mearly, drawing it that way. There is no astrological / numerical order switch in the Tarot to justify it on the left hand side.
Now look at the tables in The Book of Thoth, p. 278. (the 'wrong' ones) with the strange attribution of Aries / Star, Aquarius / Emperor. Go down the attribution column but start at Aries; Aries, Pisces, [go up to the top] Aquarius, Taurus (the left hand loop in the diagram), Cancer, Libra, Virgo, Leo, (right hand loop), Scorpio, Sag. Capricorn. The double loop only works (in the tables) if you swap the previous astrological attribution to the Emperor and Star. That is why the attributions are out of wack in the table.
Now, go back to the loop diagram. Unloop the left hand side, ie. twist it around swapping IV / Aries with XVII / Aquarius. Is not this a true map of the astrological and Roman numeral progression? There is no need to loop the left hand side in the first place. Looping the diagram on the left hand side explains nothing about a swapped Hebrew letter attribution, so it doesnt matter if it is looped or not, so why loop it? Looping it changes the astro order and the numeral order. The loop on the right hand side however remains as it explains a switch in the numbered order of the Trumps and a corresponding one in the astrological sign progression (and numbered and astrological sign orders are within the reference field of the diagram). So the right hand loop is valid, as demonstrated by the numbering exercise mentioned above.
In any case the loop diagram attributes IV to Emperor and XVII to Star (as do the cards themselves), again, no need to loop the diagram on the left. Even if we use Crowleys table and put Aries to the Star and Aquarius to the Emperor on the double loop diagram, the loop disappears as the astrological progression is back in order.
This does, however, loop the Roman numeral progression on the left hand side, but why do we need to loop the numbers when the astro progression works out?The only way to justify that is to say that the signs loop on the right and the numbers loop on the left but non of that is valid anyway as it is trying to justify a Hebrew letter swapped attribution.
The double loop in the zodiac diagram is a 'fudge' as far as I can see.
If my reasoning is off, please explain and show he where. I am very prepared to admit I might be wrong (or stupid). [You guys have known about this all along haven't you and were pulling my leg? ]
In the Book of Thoth A.C. glosses over it (p.4) "Tzaddi is the Emperor; and therefore the positions of XVII and IV must be counterchanged " (yes, but on the Tree of Life not the Zodiac). And unfortunatly Crowley refers to this balanced double loop as, "The most convincing evidence possible that the Book of the Law is a genuine message from the Secret Chiefs".
As Crowley has said (in intro to Postcards to Probationers), "I often get carried away by my own enthusiasm."
[Note I have used and still use Thoth deck for many years, I am a Thelemite, and utalise much of Crowley's writings and ritual ( except where he has made a mistake). I dont have some hidden agenda against A.C. or his system.]
cheekyinchworm said:YES! It seems to me, too, that the double-loop thing in the Zodiac is indeed a fudge. I wish I had found this thread about a week or so ago. It would have saved me a few head-aches. Because, if you order the Zodiac against the hebrew letters, you have one twist in the Thoth system. And if you order the Zodiac against the Trump numbers, you also have only one twist in the Thoth system.
I suppose you could say it was a double single-twist (or loop).
The only thing that has a double twist in it that I can see is the Key scale when ordered against the trump numbers (i.e. 15 and 28 are counter-changed as well as the key numbers for lust/strength and adjustment/justice, which I can't remember right now.)
I confess that I wasn't able to read this entire thread, and more or less focused on the discussions I could find about the Zodiac loops, so if the key scale was already discussed, please forgive me. I will be reading this entire thread in due course.
But, for right now, is everyone in agreement about the double-loop thing being a fudge? (Excepting, of course, the notion that Aries and Aquarius really can in some ways correspond to Star and Emperor respectively--THAT would indeed create a double loop. But I totally don't buy that attribution right now.)
cheekyinchworm said:...it seems to me that the Thoth tarot was constructed and envisioned as if they WERE valid.
cheekyinchworm said:So, given that, a person studying the deck on its own terms would want to try to figure out what corresponds to what and why and how and so on. And given THAT effort, the person will inevitably want to make sense of the while double-loop / zodiac thing.
cheekyinchworm said:....to jump from there to the conclusion that Crowley was just trying to cover over a problem and "force" a proof is only wild speculation on your part.
cheekyinchworm said:Crowley was a bit of a trickster and a "character" and was known for pulling all sorts of stuff,
cheekyinchworm said:But, why DuQuette didn't come right out in his typical fashion and make the distinction between the two ordering possibilities, one in hebrew letter sequence, the other in trump sequence, and explain it all as clear as day -- well, the only thing I can think is that he is bound by some OTO oath on the subject.
But that only holds water [sorry] if you accept the premise that the letters of the Hebrew alphabet correspond with the Tarot cards.
Those of us who see no such correspondences have no such problems .
Dude, if you can make sense out of it then don't let me put you off. Maybe you will come up with something that makes sense of it all. Good luck with that.
Crowley was a bit of a trickster and a "character" and was known for pulling all sorts of stuff,
I hear that a lot. You do too I''ll wager. Its a fall back position when things get confusing. Doesn't get us any closer to the truth though does it.
But, why DuQuette didn't come right out in his typical fashion and make the distinction between the two ordering possibilities, one in hebrew letter sequence, the other in trump sequence, and explain it all as clear as day -- well, the only thing I can think is that he is bound by some OTO oath on the subject.
Now who is wildly speculating?
Well, how is this for an answer: DuQuette doesn't have a clue either!
You are misreading my intended tone. In fact you have misread my intended tone throughout.cheekyinchworm said:Are you being ironic and condescending here? Or am I misreading your intended tone?