Really Obtuse Newbie Questions

Zephyros

The mapping has, for the most part, a logical, follow your nose, structure; and it is not particularly difficult to reconstruct from scratch without cheating. The very naturalness of it is what makes it such a convenient interpretive tool for tarot divination (or introspection).

What is that logical order? I mean, I know the Tree by heart, but I can't think of a pattern that governs it. How is it ordered?
 

Richard

What is that logical order? I mean, I know the Tree by heart, but I can't think of a pattern that governs it. How is it ordered?
The tree is a given. I meant the Hebrew letter attributions of the connecting paths and the mapping of tarot onto the tree.
 

ravenest

. The thing is Having already spent ages groping my way through Sanskrit, Pali, Chinese, Japanese and Korean vocabularies, parsing out the different doctrinal factions, "apocryphal" texts, teasing through the minutiae that can take hold of someone who is consumed by spiritual search, bumping up against full-on cults, dysfunctional and wonderful sanghas etc, etc, getting my head around astrology, numerology, kabbalah, hermeticism, alchemy and so on is a daunting prospect most days. Yet my interest persists...

Of course all this is NOT necessary to study tarot ... it seems to me you want to study a deeper side of things and tarot is the door you have come through. If that is right the following might be helpful:

1) In a way, for a serious student, what you have done is a prerequisite. I read that and think ... wow! What a head start this guy has ... he should be able to fly through vast sections of the curriculum :) Have you had a look at Liber Abba Book 4? if not look through the beginning and intro.

[Sample;
e.g. “ The A∴A∴ is an organization whose heads have obtained by personal experience to the summit of this science. They have founded a system by which every one can equally attain, and that with an ease and speed which was previously impossible.
The first grade in Their system is that of
STUDENT.

A Student must possess the following books:


1.The Equinox,
2.777.
3.Konx Om Pax.
4.Collected Works of A. Crowley; Tannhauser, The Sword of Song, Time, Eleusis. 3 vols.
5.Raja Yoga, by Swami Vivekananda.
6.The Shiva Sanhita, or the Hathayoga Pradipika.
7.The Tao Teh King and the writings of Kwang Tze: S.B.E. xxxix, xl.
8.The Spiritual Guide, by Miguel de Molinos.
9.Rituel et Dogme de la Haute Magie, by Eliphas Levi, or its translation by A. E. Waite.
10.The Goetia of the Lemegeton of Solomon the King. ]



http://hermetic.com/crowley/book-4/defs.html

Also have a look at this, especially towards the end ; a degree based outline.

http://oto-ie.org/articles-2/an-intimation-towards-an-o-t-o-educational-syllabus/

I found the degree based system helpful as it outlines stages of development and focus according to ‘where one is at’ (which process in life , firstly will to incarnate - 0, Birth - 1, Life (outline) – 2, Death -3,’ Beyond’ – 4, ‘Life review’ (in greater details) 5 – to where ever (but 5 is the usual level for most).

[ Instead of just seeing a mass of stones scattered about and a diagram of a pyramid (too daunting for the likes of me) … I just looked at some stones and followed the diagram for stage one … that’s all I can cope with, focus on that … after a while … Oh , I have done that … on to stage 2. ]

At times one finds reccomendations or essentials that one has done previously and or elsewhere ... at other time one finds a process that is difficult and it seems like one may never get through it (while others find it soooo simple) .... so the potential is there to assist each other.


2) the second part ; you must have some basics in astrology? From all that other stuff? I don't believe that SUCH an in depth approach (as you seen to think is necessary) is required ... at first. Just get some BASIC Kabbalah down. And relax and do some light reading on Hermetics.

I think you might need to relax a bit. I remember one person approached Crowley with issues a BIT like yours he advised them to go and do some gardening for a while ;)

http://www.takeabreak.com.au/photos/11837/Relaxing-in-the-garden.JPG

--------------

A side interest ?

Art Guild of OTO Australia ; http://www.collective777.com/#!members/c1txk
 

Abrac

Hi Kingdubrock. I'm not a kabbalistic scholar and I hate debating minutiae but I'll share a few things that have helped me.

I'll start by suggesting any books you can find by Ronald Decker as he addresses a lot of your questions in detail. The one I have is Art and Arcana; it's the companion to the Medieval Scapini Tarot, but he has other more exhaustive works.

1. I think the simple reason why many believe the tarot is esoterically linked to the kabbalah is because of the influence of Eliphas Levi. The earliest documented attribution of tarot with kabbalah is in Monde Primitif, Vol. 8, by Antoine Court de Gebelin, which influenced Levi who subsequently developed its ideas in greater detail.

In my opinion a medieval Jewish kabbalist wouldn't have recognized an informed kabbalistic viewpoint in the images at all. The kabbalist reveres the letters and would have seen in the tarot images something different entirely; there may have been a certain amount of syncretism on the part of the early designers of tarot, but I think the jury's still out on that one.

2. Don't know

3. Pathworking existed for kabbalists from very early on, but a correspondence between the tarot trumps and the paths originate with the GD as far as I know, though it may have originated with Kenneth Mackenzie. There's evidence to suggest that Westcott came into possession of some of Mackenzie's papers after his death and these served as the basis for much of the GD's system of magic. Again I'd recommend Decker.

4. I think yes and no. When new evidence becomes available it's necessary to adjust intellectually, but magic depends as much (or more) on what a person believes as it does on facts. So what someone sees from the outside might look contradictory, but to a magician it makes perfect sense.

Hope that helps a little. :)
 

Kingdubrock

What card orders were swapped around? The numerical structure of the Thoth is identical to that of the Marseille. While it is true that the mapping of the Thoth onto the TOL is not strictly order-preserving, there are at most two instances in which there are apparent interchanges, one which involves trumps 8 and 11, and another with 4 and 17, and not everyone observes the latter. The GD and Waite decks renumber trumps 8 and 11 and are pre-Thelemic, so this is the only interchange, and thereby the mapping becomes strictly order-preserving.

Ah. Thanks. I never noticed that the Thoth deck put 8 &11 back to the Marseille ordering (although things like changing Force into Lust and temperance into Art was enough to make me put the deck back in the box temporarily). Nor did I know there was a difference between GD and Thelemic approaches to these matters. Going forward I will have to learn more and be more specific. Also, to be honest, as i have been explaining, I get overload way to quickly because i only understand the TOL and astrology from the most cursory high level pov. Largely my recent intense confusion has come from trying to make sense of some of the discussions I have read on here and elsewhere (discussing different ways of mapping cards etc), which may have exaggerated my impression of this being a confused and confusing system

The only other apparent difficulty is with the planetary attributions of the double letters of the Hebrew alphabet, and since different versions of the SY are not necessarily in agreement on this matter, the GD used attributions which seemed to best fit the corresponding trumps.

Thus, for me, the only real modification needed for a valid mapping is the matter of associating Strength and Justice with paths 19 and 22, respectively. It seems remarkable that only this single interchange is absolutely essential. The other matter with 4 and 17 is a Thelemic, not GD, issue, although there are mathematical considerations involved. I keep changing my mind about it.

The mapping has, for the most part, a logical, follow your nose, structure; and it is not particularly difficult to reconstruct from scratch without cheating. The very naturalness of it is what makes it such a convenient interpretive tool for tarot divination (or introspection).

That was the sound of this going over my head for now. :)
 

nisaba

I think you might need to relax a bit. I remember one person approached Crowley with issues a BIT like yours he advised them to go and do some gardening for a while ;)

Gardening is about grounding and getting real, more than relaxing. You can spend too much time on spiritual studies, and lose touch with nature and your own body. Gardening is great for restoring the connection to both.
 

ravenest

" Seek beauty ... for in beauty is eternal truth revealed . " ;)


" To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour. "
 

Kingdubrock

1) In a way, for a serious student, what you have done is a prerequisite. I read that and think ... wow! What a head start this guy has ... he should be able to fly through vast sections of the curriculum :) Have you had a look at Liber Abba Book 4? if not look through the beginning and intro.

2) the second part ; you must have some basics in astrology? From all that other stuff? I don't believe that SUCH an in depth approach (as you seen to think is necessary) is required ... at first. Just get some BASIC Kabbalah down. And relax and do some light reading on Hermetics.

I think you might need to relax a bit. I remember one person approached Crowley with issues a BIT like yours he advised them to go and do some gardening for a while ;)

Thanks Raven for your very helpful posts. One might think I would have grappled with astrology more than I have. Its not even remotely involved in Zen and Vipassana training. Astrology figures quite heavily into Tibetan buddhist life and magic, but is far more closely related to Chinese astrology than Vedic (which is a little more relatable to Western astrology). Astrology is actually rarely taught in most Tibetan buddhist curriculums, at least for Westerners. There are a few software programs and traditional almanacs for figuring out auspicious and inauspicious times to do certain practices. The main tantra where astrology figures heavily is the Kalachakra which, while empowerments to practice (initiations performed by high lamas such as HHDL) are reasonably common or accessible, not that many people really devote their practice to it, precisely because of the need for astrological and arcane cosmological expertise. Plus, i dont know how true it is but apparently the kalachakra astrological system doesnt seem to acknowledge precession and forces a reorientation for those who do know astrology.

Thank you for the Liber Abba suggestion.
I am always in need of breathing n' gardening despite my 20+ years of seated meditation and mindfulness practice. I tend to get a new obsession every year though. Not always spiritual. Could be political, artistic, design related, cooking, a genre of music etc. This year its Tarot - but this came about from rediscovering the Marseille decks and the thinking of people like Jodorowsky, Enriquez and Flornoy. My interest in WMT stuff, thus far has only been a periodic and passing thing. Mostly because it is so externally different to my usual, dense, technical reading in other subjects. Plus my whenever I try to read up on it i seem to be consulting sources not well matched to my idiosyncratic and stubborn brain. Either too advanced, too popular, too goofy or whatever.
My aversion to reading through GD stuff usually comes from all the ritual or ceremonial content that is often portrayed to be necessary to grasp whatever it is i am trying to read up on. Setting up a witchy space, with daggers and pentagrams, chanting hebrew angel names and invoking lord knows who, wearing fancy robes and so on is probably just never gonna happen for various reasons. ;)
 

Kingdubrock

Hi Kingdubrock. I'm not a kabbalistic scholar and I hate debating minutiae but I'll share a few things that have helped me.

I'll start by suggesting any books you can find by Ronald Decker as he addresses a lot of your questions in detail. The one I have is Art and Arcana; it's the companion to the Medieval Scapini Tarot, but he has other more exhaustive works.

1. I think the simple reason why many believe the tarot is esoterically linked to the kabbalah is because of the influence of Eliphas Levi. The earliest documented attribution of tarot with kabbalah is in Monde Primitif, Vol. 8, by Antoine Court de Gebelin, which influenced Levi who subsequently developed its ideas in greater detail.

In my opinion a medieval Jewish kabbalist wouldn't have recognized an informed kabbalistic viewpoint in the images at all. The kabbalist reveres the letters and would have seen in the tarot images something different entirely; there may have been a certain amount of syncretism on the part of the early designers of tarot, but I think the jury's still out on that one.

2. Don't know

3. Pathworking existed for kabbalists from very early on, but a correspondence between the tarot trumps and the paths originate with the GD as far as I know, though it may have originated with Kenneth Mackenzie. There's evidence to suggest he was the author of the "Cypher Manuscript" and true source of the GD's system of magic. Again I'd recommend Decker.

4. I think yes and no. When new evidence becomes available it's necessary to adjust intellectually, but magic depends as much (or more) on what a person believes as it does on facts. So what someone sees from the outside might look contradictory, but to a magician it makes perfect sense.

Hope that helps a little. :)

Actually it does :)
Particularly the final point, which is one I have encountered frequently when reading up on Chaos magic. A point I entirely agree with - not just in matters of magic but in learning and communication in general. Identifying and understanding "models" is usually far more productive in pursuing diverse learning than trying to ascertain "Truth".
 

Kingdubrock

Gardening is about grounding and getting real, more than relaxing. You can spend too much time on spiritual studies, and lose touch with nature and your own body. Gardening is great for restoring the connection to both.

Word.