De Gebelin and Comte de M***

jmd

Inspired by the Boiardo efforts of our Italian and Latin speaking colleagues, I wonder if those amongst us who read French would like to take their skills hereon in opening discussions for translating De Gebelin and the Comte de Mellet's essays appearing in 1781 in Le Monde Primitif.

The full French texts are on Tarotpedia:


and

Du Jeu des Tarots by Antoine Court de Gebelin.​

I would suggest threads titled 'Gebelin: section #', or 'Mellet: section #' etc...

I'll begin if no one else has by tomorrow :)
 

Ludivine

I'm okay to try comte de M... text, I'm french so it's easy for me to understand, but I fear my english won't be sufficient. Anyway it'll be difficult for foreigners, because there is some words in old french and a lot of mistakes in transcription. Do you mind if I correct them ?

Because the text is very long, if you want, I can give you parts of it every day ?
 

jmd

By all means, correct the transcription - I too noted what I consider likely errors... but have not the French skill to ensure that my 'correction' would correct!

... so corrections welcome, and translation, even in English that needs improvement, is what makes for a great communal enterprise!
 

Ross G Caldwell

jmd, ludivine,

Donald Tyson made quite a good translation and it was free on the web for quite awhile. It seems to have gotten "lost" somehow, although there is no note remaining as to why.

He clearly wanted to share it and make it available for free, as he writes in his preface to the translation :

"I needed a full knowledge of the material contained in Court de Gébelin's book, and discovered to my surprise that these essays were not available for free in English on the Internet. Considering the importance of these works, their age, and their relative brevity, this was quite astonishing. As a consequence, I decided to translate them and put them on this Web site so that anyone else who might want to read what Court de Gébelin and the Comte de Mellet had to write about the Tarot would not be similarly disappointed."

I was lucky enough to have saved it while it was still available, but clearly Tyson owns this work and it would be unethical to post it again without his permission.

But if we could write him and ask his permission, it might save a lot of work.

Ross
 

Ludivine

Good news Ross :)

I'll wait to hear from you again before starting a translation. I can still correct mispelling in the french text.
 

Sophie

Firemaiden has been translating Gébelin and posted her translations
here.
 

jmd

I too have translated about a third of De Gebelin (a project I had intended on completing last year, but never got around to it).

I had not realised that Tyson had translated the works - though I do have a copy of someone else's translation they sold at an exhorbitant and unrealistic price.

If Ross can get permission from Tyson for his translation to form the basis of a merged version with Firemaiden's translation, it would be fantastic!
 

firemaiden

Yes, there are some typos on the French text page, which signal to me that it was maybe not a french speaker who typed it in.

My translation is sometimes an interpretation rather than direct translation, there are many idioms and turns of phrase in Gébellin's French that require careful consideration... as they say traduire est trahir.... It would be good to compare different takes on it.

I was focussing just on his view of the cards, because I haven't much stomach for the silly introduction... LOL. I have a bunch more that I haven't posted...shall I finish?
 

firemaiden

Okay, posted the sun, moon and star. Haven't made much attempt to break up the endless chains of dependent clauses into a more English style of shorter sentences...jmd, do what you want with it...
 

kwaw

The following is a online 'babel' translation of what de Mellet has to say of the suit signs in 'Monde Primitif' I did a while ago, I don't speak french and there are probably many errors, some words were not translated but are left within 'quotes', some non-sense lines difficult to make out I have left out, post it in case it may be of any use:

When the Egyptians had forgotten the first interpretation of these images, & used them like simple letters for their sacred writing, it was natural that such a superstitious people attached occult virtues [also the science of numbers & the value of the Letters as was extremely well known formerly] to characters esteemed for their antiquity, & that the Priests, who alone understood them, employed them only for religious things. They even invented new characters, & we see in the Holy scriptures that the Magi initiated in their secrets, divined by the cup [Cup of Joseph]. That they performed wonders with their Baton [the Rod of Moses & of Pharoe's magicians]. That they consulted Talismans [the Gods of Laban & Théraphim, the Urim & Thummim. ] or of engraved stones. That they divined future things by Swords, Arrows, Axes, and by weapons in general. These four Signs [ie, cups, batons, coins (talismans) and swords] were introduced along side the religious images when the establishment of Kings led to the different estates in society. Swords representing Royalty & the powerful of the Earth. As the Priests use Cups for the Sacrifices, so the Cup came to represent the priesthood. Coins, Trade. The Baton, as the crook and the pivot, representing Agriculture.

These four already mysterious Characters, once joined together with the sacred images, had to make hope for the greatest lights; & fortuitous combinations of mixed signs and images, forming sentences which the Magi interpreted like the Stops of Destiny; their random combination to be read in the style of Oracles. Each estate thus had its symbol which characterized it; & among the different symbols, there was happy & unhappy signs and images, and according to the position, the number of the symbols & their ornaments, came together to announce happiness or misfortune.

III Names of various Cards, preserved by the Spaniards.

The names of several of these Tableau have been preserved by the Spaniards, by which we can discern something of their character. These names are seven. The three of deniers, mysterious number, called the Lord, the Master, devoted to supreme God, in Large Iou. Three of cup, called the Dame, devoted to the Queen of the Skies. The One-eyed one or the Ace of deniers, Phoebeoe 'lampadis instar'., devoted to Apollo. The Cow or two of cups, devoted to Apis or Isis. Large Last nines, nine cups; devoted to the Destiny. Small Last nines of denier, devoted to Mercury. The Snake or the Ace of Batons (Ophion), a symbol famous & sacred among the Egyptians.

[ In 'A Wicked Pack of Cards' Decker/Dummet observe Mellet here "..commits the same mistake as Court de Gebelin in supposing that the names given to certain particular cards in the game of Aluette apply to the corresponding cards in the Tarot, and makes the same error of detail as Court de Gebelin had done in assigning the name 'le Borgne' (the one-eyed man) to the Ace of Coins rather than to the 2.]


IV Mythological attributes of several others.

Several other Tableau are accompanied by Mythological attributes which print a virtue particular & secret to them. Such as two denier surrounded of the mystical Belt of Isis. The four of denier, devoted to the good Fortune, painted in the medium of the Tableau, the foot on its ball & the deployed veil. The Dame of Baton is devoted to Cérès; this Dame is crowned with ears of corn, and carries the skin of the lion, just as Hercules the farmer par excellence. The Valet of cups holds his bonnet with his hand, & respectfully carryies a mysterious cup, covered with a veil; it seems by lengthening the arm, he moves the cup away from him, to teach us that one should approach sacred things only with fear, & not to seek hidden things except with discretion.


The Ace of Swords is devoted to Mars. The Sword is decorated with a crown, a palm & an olive branch, to mean the Victor & her fruits: there is no other happy Card in this suit except this one. It is single, because there is only one way of making war well; to have peace you must overcome. This sword is held by the hand of a left arm emerging from a cloud. The Tableau of the baton of the Snake, about which we spoke above, is decorated with flowers & fruits just like the victorious Sword; this mysterious baton is supported by a right hand also leaving a cloud, but bright with rays. These two characters seem to say that Agriculture & the Sword are the two arms of the Empire & the support of society.


The Cups in general denote happiness, & the Denier riches. The Batons signifying Agriculture portend more or less abundant harvests of them, or in general has relate to the countryside or which regard it. They represent mixed fortunes for good & evil: four figures have green batons, are are considered fortunate, but other cards by the balance of the ornamentation indicate indifference: two only, whose batons are the color of blood, are taken as omens of misfortune. All the Swords predict only misfortunes, especially of odd number, still more so those that carry a bloody sword. Only the crowned sword of victory is a sign of a happy event in this suit.


V Comparison of these Attributes with the values assigned to modern Cards for the purpose of divination.

Our Tellers of good-fortune not knowing how to read Hieroglyphics, withdrew all the images and changed the names of cups, batons, denier & swords, while understanding neither the etymology nor the expression; substituting hearts, diamonds, clubs & spades. But they retained certain turnings & several expressions by which we can retrace the origin of their divinatory meanings to the original suits. According to them, the Hearts (Cups) announce happiness. The Clubs (Denier) fortune. Spades (Swords) misfortune. Diamonds [note that in the symbolic writing system of the Egyptians diamond squares represent the countryside ] (Batons) indifference & the countryside. The nine of spades is a disastrous card. The nine of hearts, the card of the Sun; the nine of clubs they also look upon as a happy card. The aces announce Letters, News: indeed which is more capable to bring news than the One-eyed one(the Sun), which traverses, sees & lights all the Universe?

The ace of spades & the eight of hearts predict victory; the crowned ace being all the more happy when accompanied by the cups or fortunate signs. The hearts & more particularly the ten, reveal the events which must arrive at the city. The cups, symbol of Priesthood, seem intended to express Memphis & the stay of the Pontiffs. The ace of hearts & the Queen of Diamonds announce a happy & faithful tenderness. The ace of cup expresses a single happiness, possessed by one only; the Queen of Diamonds indicates a woman who lives in the countryside, or has regard to the countryside: & in which place can one see more truth, or innocence, than at the village?

The nine of clubs & the queen of hearts, signify jealousy. Though the nine of denier is a fortunate card, a great passion, even happy, for someone living in the large world, does not leave his/her lover without concern, &c. &c.

One could go on forever of the similarities but this is sufficient to demonstrate such.

...

The Kings are the image of the Sovereigns, Parents, the Generals, the Magistrates, the Old men. The Dames relative have the same characters in their kind with the circumstances, that is to say in the political, serious or merry Order: sometimes they are powerful, skilful, intriguing, 'fidelles' or 'légeres', impassioned or indifferent, sometimes rival, obliging, confidantes, perfidious, &c. If it arrives two Cards of the same kind, in fact the seconds play the second parts. The Servants are young People, Warriors, the Lovers, Dandies, &c. The Seven & the Eights are Young ladies of all the kinds. The Last nines of heart is named, par excellence, the Card of the sun, because it always announces brilliant things, pleasant, successes, nine of clubs, which is also a Card a marvellous forecast. The Last nine of square indicates the delay in good or evil. The Last nines of spade is the worst Card: it predicts only ruins, diseases, death. The Ten of heart indicates the City; that of square, the countryside; Ten of clubs, fortune, 'argnet'; that of spade, the sorrows & sorrows. The Aces announce letters, news. If the four Damess arrive together, that means prattle, quarrels. Several Valets together announce competition, argument & combat. The clubs in general, especially if they leave together, announces success, favours, fortune, money. Squares, the countryside, indifference. Hearts, satisfaction, happiness. Spades, shortage, concern, sorrows, death.

It is necessary to have care to arrange the Cards in the same order that they leave, & on the same line, not to disturb the sentence. The predicted events, in good or evil, can be more or less advantageous or unhappy, according to whether the principal Card is accompanied: the spades, for example, accompanied by clubs, especially if they arrive between two clubs, are less dangerous; like the club between two spades or coupled of a spade, is less fortunate. Sometimes the beginning announces disastrous accidents; but the end of the Cards is favorable, if there is many clubsr; one looks at them as reduced, more or less, according to the quantity: if they are followed by the Ace or the Ten, that proves that one ran of great dangers, but that they passed, & which Fortune changes face.

Aces: 1 of square, 8 of heart, good News.
1 of heart, Dame of spade, Visits of woman.
1 of heart, Knave of hearts, Victory.
1, 9 & Knave of hearts, the happy Lover.
1, 10 & 8 of spade, Misfortune
1 of spade, 8 of heart, Victory.
1 of club, Knave of spades, Friendship.
7 & 10 of heart, Friendship of Young lady.
7 of heart, Dame of square, Friendship of woman.
7 of square, King of hearts, Delay.
10 of clubs, King of spade, Present.
10 of clubs & Servant of clubs, a lover [un amoreaux].
10 of spade, Valet of square, somebody anxious.
10 of heart, King of clubs, sincere Friendship.

Kwaw
If any of our translators would find it of aid I have most of the de Mellet translated with a section of 150 words in french followed by 150 in computor generated translation following for nearly the whole of the mellet essay.

edited to tidy up the first section a bit, too ...