High Priestess as "Prudence": The Missing/Secret Virtue

Thirteen

In a thread discussing Strength, the topic of the four virtues was brought up. They are: Prudence, Fortitude, Justice and Temperance. As you can see, three out of the four appear in the tarot. But what happened to Prudence? Nisaba wondered:

nisaba said:
...given that the Mediaeval mind thought in sets and the deck is full of sets (emperor and empress, sun, moon and star, pope and papess, etc), whether there wasn't originally a set of Fortitude, Temperance, Justice and Prudence, and us moderns have lost the Prudence card after the ancient Italian period and before the Marseilles period.

And as a matter of fact, here she is in a 16th century deck: http://www.corax.com/tarot/index.html?mantegna-tarocchi/35-prudencia

Among her symbols are the mirror (literally for reflection), serpent (either under foot to show her stopping evil or in her hand, indicating wisdom), sometimes she has two faces (looking forward and back, relating to her to the Roman god Janus—alas these two faces are sometimes a man and woman's face, and the results, as in this old card, are not pretty). Other of her sometime emblems were a scroll, book or keys (Janus being the god of doorways).

Prudence missing from modern decks, however, is even more enigmatic if one considers that Prudence was very important to the Masons. Waite and his GD buddies stuffed the tarot full of Masonic symbols and elements. So what about Prudence? Well, most believe that the HPS was originally Prudence (It certainly makes a kind of sense that there might not have originally been a Papess, but, instead, Prudence). Not only that, but she might still BE Prudence. The HPS is all about secret knowledge, and this would make her, herself, literally secret knowledge (and a secret virtue or secret weapon if you like). You have to be a member of the club and in on its secrets to know that behind the HPS' veil is the face of Prudence.

And if we consider the astrology that Waite and his buddies gave the cards, then it makes even more sense. Prudence is the "Charioteer of the virtues" (i.e leading the way)—and given that Cancer is the Chariot, and thus related to the HPS as the Moon card...well, that would bring a bunch of hidden chain links to light.

I'd actually love to create a deck with Prudence rather than the HPS. I don't think, however, that'd I'd go for the Janus reference of two faces—though the triple goddess, two faces lin profile out from behind the forward face, would work out well don't you think? As in this image: http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/16...p707cF3crR2T19NeednQLH9mLNeQYmOKWS6WV3lmyVr5h

And I could certainly see giving the HPS card a mirror for "reflection" (often seen as a keyword for the HPS), maybe a serpent (I'd go for it standing for wisdom). The scroll is already there....might be really cool.

Check out this lovely image of Prudence: http://www.hangtogetherblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Prudence-by-Piero-del-Pollaiuolo.jpg

Further information on this from our local scholars? Thoughts? Reflections?

nisaba

Thirteen said:
In a thread discussing Strength, the topic of the four virtues was brought up. They are: Prudence, Fortitude, Justice and Temperance. As you can see, three out of the four appear in the tarot. But what happened to Prudence? Nisaba wondered:

I remember wondering that! <grin>

And as a matter of fact, here she is in a different Medieval deck: http://www.corax.com/tarot/index.html?mantegna-tarocchi/35-prudencia

Among her symbols are the mirror (literally for reflection), serpent (either under foot to show her stopping evil or in her hand, indicating wisdom),

... reminding me instantly of the Cretan snake-goddess statue, so-called, which could easily be a portrayal of a "High Priestess" of Cretan times ...

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-71834276129357_2227_870876469.jpg

Other of her sometime emblems were a scroll, book or keys

And gosh, what Tarot card would THAT remind me of?

Prudence missing from modern decks, however, is even more enigmatic if one considers that Prudence was very important to the Masons. Waite and his GD buddies stuffed the tarot full of Masonic symbols and elements. So what about Prudence? Well, most believe that the HPS was originally Prudence (It certainly makes a kind of sense that there might not have originally been a Papess, but, instead, Prudence). Not only that, but she might still BE Prudence. The HPS is all about secret knowledge, and this would make her, herself, literally secret knowledge (and a secret virtue or secret weapon if you like). You have to be a member of the club and in on its secrets to know that behind the HPS' veil is the face of Prudence.

In conventional parlance, too, small-p-prudence is the wisdom to know when NOT to speak. The HPS is about wisdom. She is also about unspoken knowledge, which we cheapen around the forum, I often think, when we interpret her as "keeping secrets", especially in relationship readings. I tend to give her more credit than that.

I'd actually love to create a deck with Prudence rather than the HPS. I don't think, however, that'd I'd go for the Janus reference of two faces—though the triple goddess, two faces lin profile out from behind the forward face, would work out well don't you think? As in this image: http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/16...p707cF3crR2T19NeednQLH9mLNeQYmOKWS6WV3lmyVr5h

I have a very similar statuette to that in what I am pleased to call my "back passage", which might seem a little irreverent until you know that my back passage connects my laundry to my bathroom, both places of Water Mysteries. And the HPS card, with its crescent moon (which could be a convulsing snake) underfoot and flowing blue kirtle, is all about Water Mysteries. Perhaps keeping my Triple Goddess there - she was happy nowhere else in the house - is not so disrespectful, after all.

And I could certainly see giving the HPS card a mirror for "reflection" (often seen as a keyword for the HPS), maybe a serpent (I'd go for it standing for wisdom). The scroll is already there....might be really cool.

The crescent moon on the floor needs only a very slight alteration <tempt tempt>.

Further information on this from our local scholars? Thoughts? Reflections?

I'm no scholar. Arguably I don't think or reflect, either. But I like where you're going with locating the missing virtue!

Nemia

As addition, I'd like to link back to an old discussion about the three theological virtues - also missing in the tarot: Fides, Spes and Caritas - Faith, Hope and Charity.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=162458

When I noticed they were missing, I thought to myself that maybe these virtues were "swallowed" by Hierophant, Star and Empress - without doing any further research. Turns out it's more complicated ;-)

The numerological aspect of the Virtues is obvious. 4 classical and 3 theological virtues added = 7 like the days of the week and the planets. If you multiply them, you get 12, like the months of the year and the zodiac. 7 and 12 are the two numbers you need to count time. So the virtues rule time, rule our human life.

ETA: I want a Michiate!!!!

And thank you for the Prudence explanation - very interesting.

Thirteen

nisaba said:
... reminding me instantly of the Cretan snake-goddess statue, so-called, which could easily be a portrayal of a "High Priestess" of Cretan times ...

Oh, good point! I knew the way she was holding that snake in some of the pictures looked familiar! Snakes, in most ancient religions, also stand for secrets as well as wisdom.

And gosh, what Tarot card would THAT remind me of?

RE: Keys...if we take the HPS for Prudence, then the Hierophant has literally borrowed her keys

In conventional parlance, too, small-p-prudence is the wisdom to know when NOT to speak. The HPS is about wisdom. She is also about unspoken knowledge, which we cheapen around the forum, I often think, when we interpret her as "keeping secrets", especially in relationship readings. I tend to give her more credit than that.

That's going into my journal! You're quite right. We too often see the HPS as being secretive rather than wisely holding her tongue. In most cases, after all, she doesn't tell us a secret because it's either not the right time for us to hear it (we're not ready), or, as in so many lessons, we will understand better if we discover it ourselves.

Perhaps keeping my Triple Goddess there - she was happy nowhere else in the house - is not so disrespectful, after all.

Makes total sense to me. The HPS likes her privacy and quiet after all--and if she is Prudence...the bathroom is where the mirror is

The crescent moon on the floor needs only a very slight alteration <tempt tempt>.

Indeed! But I'm now thinking that I like the idea of Prudence hiding behind the veil of the HPS. So...forward facing woman, veiled--but you can see some features though it. Triple moon behind her, the full one a mirror, the crescent ones with pretty, profile faces (rather like this: https://img0.etsystatic.com/000/0/5137860/il_570xN.102969378.jpg) indicating the looking two directions. Serpent...well, now that you've mentioned the Cretan HPS, I kind of have to have it in her hand, don't I?

Give her a ring of keys hanging from her belt (HPS as Chatelaine, right?) and we let her keep the scroll and pillars. Hm...know any good artists?

Thirteen

Nemia said:
ETA: I want a Michiate!!!!

It does get you all those missing virtues and then some! Interesting that it's 16th century. So after Marseilles.

Thirteen

Looking both ways...

Getting back to the Janus reference...it does add a missing piece to the HPS, doesn't it? We always see her as seated and looking forward, the fulcrum between the two pillars. It's as if she's keeping them apart or acting as their go-between. But, first off, that makes us forget that you can't keep the roof up with only one pillar. Seated between them, she is in the safest place, as you'd be if you were under a doorway in a earthquake. So...that's a smart place to sit

Second, seeing her as between the two has the feel of old science fiction ("We must not let the matter and anti-matter meet or it will be the end of the universe!").

And I fully admit to being guilty of viewing the card that way. Especially in lieu of the polarity of the 2's in the minors, which do tend to be about trying to keep two things going rather than giving up one and committing to the other.

If she's looking in both directions, however, at both pillars, forward/back, left/right, black/white...well, then it's a little like looking both ways before crossing the street. It's the wise thing to do; gain all the knowledge, and take a moment to look in the mirror and gain insight to what you want as well. What your instincts tell you, but also what is wise. What is...prudent.

The #2 certain suits her better than ever taking this into account.

rwcarter

Per Anthony Louis in "Tarot Beyond the Basics," Gareth Knight in "Magical World" organizes the Majors around the 4 Cardinal Virtues with the "Hall of Prudence" being associated with the World. The other members of that hall are Star, Moon, Sun and Judgement. Knight associates the HP with the hall of Strength (Fortitude).

I'd swear I'd seen something else about this recently, but memory fails right now.

Thirteen

rwcarter said:
Per Anthony Louis in "Tarot Beyond the Basics," Gareth Knight in "Magical World" organizes the Majors around the 4 Cardinal Virtues with the "Hall of Prudence" being associated with the World. The other members of that hall are Star, Moon, Sun and Judgement. Knight associates the HP with the hall of Strength (Fortitude).

I say "Meh!" to that

You've got Temperance, you've got Strength (fortitude) and you've got Justice. Why assign those virtues to Star, Moon, Sun, Judgement?

I mean, I'm sure there is a reason, but does seem to willfully ignore the obvious, and that doesn't strike me as...prudent

The World for Prudence I could see--the female figure as one face, old man Saturn as the other face, a card about wisdom, etc. But Prudence is supposed to be the first of those four virtues (leading the way) not the last. Also, a card about completion, travel and accumulated knowledge doesn't seem to include reflection and secrets. Somewhat the opposite as it's more about about spreading information around then deciding what to hold back. The World strikes me as a different kind of wisdom than that of prudence.

My vote stays with the HPS. Besides...cooler.

And I didn't do a forum search of this topic before starting this thread. I've no doubt it's been hashed out before, but you think recently? I'll take a look and see.

Metafizzypop

I also see Prudence as an alternate High Priestess. I have the Minchiate and the Etteilla decks, both of which have Prudence, but do not have an HP. I agree that the Prudence cards do symbolically show HP-like traits. The snake is an old symbol of feminine wisdom from Pagan religions, (which is exactly why it got bad casting in the ::cough:: newer religions). And a mirror is there, as has been noted, for self-reflection. The word Prudence itself means to be discreet, to hold things back, similar to the nature of the HP.

When I do readings, I find myself interpreting Prudence the same as the HP, more or less. And it seems to work well.

Thirteen said:
Among her symbols are the mirror (literally for reflection), serpent (either under foot to show her stopping evil or in her hand, indicating wisdom), sometimes she has two faces (looking forward and back, relating to her to the Roman god Janus—alas these two faces are sometimes a man and woman's face, and the results, as in this old card, are not pretty).

No, the results in the drawing aren't pretty. Although it seems symbolically shamanic. Or Jungian. Which also fits in with the nature of the High Priestess, and her connection to the unconscious.

Thirteen

Metafizzypop said:
I also see Prudence as an alternate High Priestess. I have the Minchiate and the Etteilla decks, both of which have Prudence, but do not have an HP. I agree that the Prudence cards do symbolically show HP-like traits.

Thank you for chiming in! I knew there'd be someone around here with experience with a Prudence card to let us know if this view had any merit. I was half afraid it'd be blasted out of the water because I wasn't considering some obscure aspect of Prudence or the HPS

Thinking about this, it also puts an interesting twist on an ill-dignified HPS. Might an inverted HPS—if viewed as partially Prudence—suggest self-reflection that offers a distorted view rather than a clear reflection? Like, say, the way so many men and women look in the mirror and only focus on their flaws?

I'm just considering what a powerful symbol a mirror would be in that card....lots of ways to read it. It would, however, be important I think to avoid reading it as vanity (we do have the Page/Cups rx as potential narcissism). Prudence is anything but that, and the mirror isn't meant for beautifying, so much as honesty. Which puts an interesting spin on the secrecy aspect, as nothing exposes us to ourselves like a mirror. If we consider that the HPS sometimes wears a veil hiding her face, then we have a fascinating set of opposites. Her face is a secret, but not from herself. Self-Reflection, instincts as it were, hide nothing, keep nothing secret from us.