Ten and nine of wands

Frater Benedict

In decks older than 1910, Ten of wands and Nine of wands gives a similar impression visually: Both looks like fences, braided hedges or wooden palings. It is, then, hardly surprising that the traditional French divinatory meanings of the cards (either turned upright or reversed) are given as some sort of obstacles or hindrances for both cards. Is there a traditional way of making a distinction between the divinatory meaning these two cards?

dancing_moon

I'm not exactly sure what traditional French divinatory meanings you refer to, so I might be a bit off here.

I know that Etteilla's meanings fit your description: his interpretations for both 9 and 10 of Wands include delays, obstacles, and hindrances. However, 9 of Wands seems to focus more on delays and obstacles that will cause something to get postponed, unless the querent works hard on removing them. 10 of Wands, on the other hand, has 'treason' as the main upright meaning, and mostly implies difficult circumstances and a load of responsibilities, especially those imposed on the querent by cruel and egotistic people.

Thirteen

Interesting!

dancing_moon said:
10 of Wands, on the other hand, has 'treason' as the main upright meaning, and mostly implies difficult circumstances and a load of responsibilities, especially those imposed on the querent by cruel and egotistic people.

Wow. I learn something new every day here. I have honestly never heard of that interpretation. I usually read the burdens as being willingly taken on--sort of like "you asked for all this, now you've got it..." It's not pleasant or desired, but the person feels obligated to step up to the plate and carry it all. I sometime even see it as at the price of success.

But that is undoubtedly my modern, western civilization view. In times past, those in charge heaped burdens on those below them, leaving themselves the free and easy life while others did the heavy lifting. With the rise of the middle class, we got that new idea of the successful man as the workaholic, and the idea that gaining your dreams could lead to being more burdened rather than less.

What most interests me, however, is the "treason." The idea that the burdens come from a betrayal within, from other turning on you. Dumping their burdens on you. Hm. How does that fit in with the 10 numerology?

Frater Benedict

dancing_moon said:
I'm not exactly sure what traditional French divinatory meanings you refer to, so I might be a bit off here.

I know that Etteilla's meanings fit your description: his interpretations for both 9 and 10 of Wands include delays, obstacles, and hindrances. However, 9 of Wands seems to focus more on delays and obstacles that will cause something to get postponed, unless the querent works hard on removing them. 10 of Wands, on the other hand, has 'treason' as the main upright meaning, and mostly implies difficult circumstances and a load of responsibilities, especially those imposed on the querent by cruel and egotistic people.

Yes, I mean Etteilla, but also the general continental tradition with Etteilla as its point of origin (Let us, for the time being, skip the discussion about his alleged Italian sources and his probable borrowings from De Mellet).

Obstacles caused by human beings for Ten of Wands and obstacles caused by outer random events for Nine of Wands sounds like a reasonable distinction. Thank you!

Since I posted my original message, I have noticed that D'Odoucet associated Ten of Wands also with barricades and fortresses, and that Nine of Wands is also associated with crossroads and gates with a bar (Or is it 'level'? English is not my first language, but I mean that sort of pole or rod used for customs purposes in older times, which then came into more frequent use by the advent of railroads), so human causes for Ten and natural causes for Nine sounds congenial.

dancing_moon

Thirteen said:
But that is undoubtedly my modern, western civilization view. In times past, those in charge heaped burdens on those below them, leaving themselves the free and easy life while others did the heavy lifting. With the rise of the middle class, we got that new idea of the successful man as the workaholic, and the idea that gaining your dreams could lead to being more burdened rather than less.

That's a very apt observation, Thirteen. :thumbsup:

This could be especially true for the suit of Wands, apparently associated with the country and farming labor - traditionally the hardest and the least prestigious kind of work.

How does that fit in with the 10 numerology?

Actually, I've been having a hard time trying to decipher Etteilla's numerology, if there is any. Maybe, someone more knowledgeable in Etteilla could help out.

Frater Benedict said:
Obstacles caused by human beings for Ten of Wands and obstacles caused by outer random events for Nine of Wands sounds like a reasonable distinction. Thank you!

That's a nice way of putting it.

Treachery can be burdensome and add to one's labors as well.

There was an interesting thread outlining traditional Italian meanings for the TdM pips, showing striking similarities with Etteilla's meanings. Here, again, 10 of Wands is all about treachery, lies, and distrust, while 9 of Wands is more about delays, slowing down, and unhappy accidents.

Thirteen

dancing_moon said:
Here, again, 10 of Wands is all about treachery, lies, and distrust, while 9 of Wands is more about delays, slowing down, and unhappy accidents.

Actually, distrust works very well for the 10/Wands even in a modern context. The workaholic refuses to delegate, not trusting anyone to be able to do it as he could. And so he ends up overburdened.

The original view, however, suggests that the person has a good reason for not trusting anyone. And, again, is more about an underling than a manager. It implies, to me, a servant who lies about having done their work, and so another is forced to take up the slack. Others betraying you by not sharing the burdens they said they'd share. Which I find very interesting indeed! That's a new and very useful interpretation for that card.

As for the 9/Wands, the "waiting" feel certainly jives with most interpretations I've read of that card. Especially if the delay is getting to the point where the person thinks it's never going to happen and maybe they should give up.