type of marriage/partner!

Hi everyone.

Ive been looking into the marrige partner and quality of marriage... this all kinda started wanting to know how many times ill get married lol and now iam freaked out at being married at all!!!

my love interest has both juno and lilith conjunt in scorpio 12 H

aside from requiring a deep intense emotional wife. it also says that a 12H juno may likely be a 'con' and 'do him in' also the 'wife' ( me i suppose lol) may have a health issue and die first. wtf??!! also this house placements denies, restricts and delays...

I have the ruler of my 7H (scorpio) Pluto in libra 6H and Mars in libra 5H. The 6H seems to be unfortunate for marriage for me (i have a huge libra stellium going on in that house) It says i may get a marriage that is unhappy and end in divorce. I may also get a partner who has health issues... I may also get married again... iam not sure how since the first one sounds traumatizing already lol

also my marriage may be my 'work/job' so i may end up being a full time stay at home mom/wife... which already fits nicely. because he is a difficult/complicated man and requires alot of attention and focus. But the descrip only fits with him. past relationships have been ok... it only seems to ges complicated when they have heavy scorpio planets.

so far we have had a long complicated sometimes difficult and troubled courtship... so now iam very very curious about what marriage to this idividual may be like.

**How do i find out what kind of 'health issue'?

some direction and insights would be appreciated!!! what do i need to look at?

I, for one, wouldn't look at asteroids but if that's your choice, then look at them by all means and work it out from there. I would look at the sign on the 7th cusp, ruler of the 7th (position, sign, aspects) and planets in the 7th. Having said that, I should be drawn to Cancerians which I am not. Neither Sun in Cancer, nor Ascendant in Cancer have ever been my choice in partners. However, men with Moon/Venus/Mars in Cancer (where my Moon and Mars are) are definitely some of the important choices I've made and I've noticed I am attracted to such. Aspects matter when it comes to the ruler of the 7th, IMO. Moon and Venus matter in a man's chart - position, sign, aspects.

I am also looking for aspects to the angles as in all important synastries I've seen, the partners' personal planets have at least one conjunction to an angle. Same with my synastries. Therefore, a person with a personal planet on my Ascendant or Descendant will most probably hit me strong. Those with personal planets conjunct the IC truly bring a lot of disturbance for better or worse and those with a conjunction to the MC very often bring a change in status which marriage is.

On the number of marriages, I've read a lot as I do lots of synastries but I haven't found even one reliable method, so i don't know if there is such. Another problem with this is if you use the classical astrological lots of marriage, you will face the issue with our modern long-term and live in relationships which from an ancient astrologer's point of view would be marriages because they include all aspects of a marriage. How do we read these relationships? I don't know. If they count, then many of us have been "married" quite a few times. Does the signature matter? Would the ancient astrologers consider a live in partner a husband/wife? I don't know. Which is why I can't figure out how to use the ancient lots of marriage.

Thank you so much R!!!!

i love asteroids and inlove how they in a subtle way play up their energies on who you attract and who you enter a relationship with.

i have juno in capricorn 9H and all my partners have had an earthy vibe and total entrepeneurs and social climbers. they all more less have had a watery or earth juno placement usually 9H or 12H.

scorpio being my 7H is a major pain. its not a blessing like i used to think the intensity and passion really gets out of control sometimes and the libra stellium in the 6H doesnt always help ive noticed.

my beloved and i have an intense complicated relationship.

venus opposite pluto
sun opposite pluto
sun in 6H
and my neptune in his first which fits nicely with a deceptive scorpio juno in 12H.

both his venus asc, juno, lilith fall in my 7H.

i fear i need to be (atleast on my end) completely honest and transparent with him even more so now. i dot want to give the impression of deceptiveness. but i dont want to shatter his romantic illusion of me either lol

i noticed that i attracted water, earth and air SUN signs
venus/moon alternate from water and earth sometimes air aswell.

cancer, scorpios, virgos and aquarius men seem the most attracted to me. which fits nicely since i have ASC taurus. MC aqua and DSC scorpio. not to mention a cancer moon.

Like Ronia I wouldn't use asteroids. Even if I did, I wouldn't start with them in this analysis. I differ from Ronia in that I wouldn't use Pluto for the ruler of Scorpio (which whilst she didn't specifically mention it, I know from previous posts ) I would use Mars, the traditional ruler.

The tradition covers nearly 2,000 years, and there are differences in approach over that time. Lilly in the seventeenth century tends to use a late medieval approach and he would look, in the case of a woman, to the Sun, Mars, the Lord of the seventh and any planets in the seventh. What he would not do is come up with the sign of the likely husband. He would first of all be trying to identify if there would be a marriage at all. That would depend on the placements of those planets in terms of the quality of the sign. So Ronia, (seeing she used herself as an example) has the Moon ruling Cancer as the ruler of the seventh. Cancer is a fruitful sign and the Moon is a fruitful planet. Fruitful signs are an indicator of marriage for him. So the Moon scores two for fruitful. Mars is also in Cancer, so score three for fruitful. I don't think he would count Mars and the Moon twice, but either way we have all indicators pointing to fruitful. What is more they are angular and the Moon is in her domicile, though Mars is in its Fall. The conclusion is that Ronia will get married/have relationships.

Lilly would look to a number of factors indicating more than one marriage/relationship.

He states that ,'the Sun in a a Sign of one form, or in aspect with one matutine planet notes she shall marry but once. Sun in a sign of many shapes or in aspect to many matutine planets show she will marry more than once'

Now Ronia's Sun is in Scorpio, which is a 'Sign of one shape' (Sagittarius, Gemini, Pisces and Virgo are treated as 'double bodied') So that's a count for one marriage. However the Sun aspects, Venus, Saturn, Moon and Mars by sign and they have all risen before the Sun, so they are matutine planets. The aspects to Saturn and to Mars are in the orbs used by Modern Astrology, so they point to more than one marriage or relationship. So we have something a little in between there. From a personal standpoint I'd probably say that indicates more than one marriage or relationship, especially as Scorpio is a fruitful sign.

The physical description of the husband he would take from Sign on the seventh (Cancer) and the Lord of the Seventh and the aspectsit and the Sun makes to describe the condition of the husband's (s') physique. I'm not going to run through a synthesis of those but the point is that there's no reference to modern sign meanings in any of this.

However the crux of the issue is well identified by Ronia. Do we only take marriages in the sense of formal contractual relationships (with or without God's blessing ) or do we consider that a relationship that lasts any length of time constitutes 'marriage' If we do, what length of time is that? It's clear to me that a loving relationship with a partner which doesn't involved a marriage contract is far more meaningful that a marriage which lasts six week and ends in divorce. However, defining what constitutes a relationship in this sense is difficult. The relationship meaning enough to make some sort of formal agreement or undergoing some sort of formal ceremony is one possiblity but only one.

Cultural factors are clearly important in the answer to this. Christianity (and indeed virtually all religions) frown on sexual relationships outside marriage. Looking at some of the Hellenistic texts they seem less obsessed with 'Victorian values' than we might expect them to be. However what the general cultural mores was, they don't indicate. So my guess is that at least one lot might be relevant in these circumstances.

Lilly's use of Mars as an indicator of sexual factors relating to the husband, which is in accord to the Ptloemaic tradition. Many of Ptolemy's contemporaries uses Venus for relationships, both for men and women. And used Lots, which Ptolemy did not. The main Lot of Marriage used involved Venus and Saturn (the latter signifying the formality of the relationship). Valens used a Lot which involved Venus and Jupiter, which still gives a public and indeed legal nature to the relationship (through Jupiter) but is a 'happier' view of marriage (both benefics are used).

I must admit that I'd probably go for that one in situations where a legal contract is less likely but I can't 'prove' it's the best one to take. He has an alternative lot, which perhaps shows marriage or a relationship in terms of risk or possible loss. He again takes the Sun to signify men and the Moon to signify women but uses the rulers of the signs of their falls as the other factor. That brings together Sun and Venus for men (Libra is the sign of the Sun's Fall) and Moon and Mars for women (Scorpio is the Sign of the Moon's Fall).

I don't really want to comment in any depth on Junethird's prospects as I don't have a copy of her chart. But one bad indicator (ruler of the seventh in the sixth) does not define the relationship and there may be other factors which make things easier. Also the Ruler of the seventh in the sixth might simply indicate that you marry someone who has (or develops) health problems but the marriage is fine.

Thank you M!

yes i think ill get married. hopefully its stable and long lasting. i do worry because i have a prominent uranus at the end of the 7H but in Sag. so I do wonder if that will play a facoe outside of deacribing the marriage partner. because my current longbterm interest does have a prominent uranus in his 1H really close to his ASC in scorpio and i cant belive i didnt see this years earlier how the orbs and aspect match up nicely. so i so think i will marry this man. atleast he will be my first marriage.

iam sorry i dont get as techinical as you guys. i need to break it down in more of a simple point form for me to understand astrology. or else it gets complicated and then i give up lol

cancer moon scorpio 7H so it does depict a atleast an intense fruitful marriage. Mars at the end of 5H libra so altho in detroment. may still produce a baby or two. altho delayed.

he has gemini moon gemini 7H so again nice indication of marriage. Mercury 11H libra looks not too shabby. equality mental stimulation and friendship is high for him.

how do i look at what the health issue may end up being? looking for clues atleast... because it develops after marriage. so a condition he had or didnt have?

as for what counts as marriage or not. iam confused because i know he has lived with other woman before. ive only lived with 1 other male but it was very short and brief. so i dont really count it as it was only a few short months. I would say my current paramour is my longest connection as know we are talking years almost a decade in the making with two major breaks in between. which again i think its because we both have strong uranus influence causing the instability in partnerships.

I'm a bit lost here, to be honest. Why does the position of a planet in beginning or end of house matter? Does this planet make an important aspect there? If not, why would you consider it at all? Then why should any health issue be present? The 6th is a house of service. I've seen many people frown on synastry aspects to the 6th and its ruler but in the future come back and talk about being "supported in everything, everyday". The 6th has some valuable traits to offer in a relationship. But even if it's health related, it may be a helath issue that actually brings two people closer togther or make them re-think relationship, etc. Not all is doom and gloom.

With Pluto ruling the DSC (which I do use as Minderwiz pointed ) and the Sun opposing it, I don't really think you're quite into the dedication Scorpio requires in relationships. Sadly, being a Scorpio myself, I can't contribute to the "this nasty Scorpio" trend but I do understand how Scorpio on the Dsc can drive many people mad. In addition, Scorpio is not a happy sign, overall, compared to the "happily ever after" belief. Scorpio is death, mostly. Pluto too. For tender souls - "transformation". But it's ending really. So, anyone dealing with important Scorpio influence in their chart has two choices: to accept the endings and learn from them or to fight them and face the fact that they will still happen.

Again, for me the main issues is how do we treat our modern live in and committed long-term relationships. If, as Minderwiz said, I look at my chart, I've had one marriage but I've had two more live in, years long relationships. They were in no way different from my marriage. This makes it very confusing. I even asked Minderwiz before on the Hellenistic astrology thread if I'll marry again but due to the same insecurity regarding relationships, it wasn't very clear. The ancient astrologers didn't have such issues. marriage was marriage. Live in relationship was out of the question. Mistresses were just 5th house although the story know more than one king whose mistress was more than a wife, really. So, that's the main complication for me.

P.S. Oh, Minderwiz, you never told me about those "fruitful" signs before! My horaries on "WIll I marry again" have always been firm "no", though.

it matters because karmic or fated points of the orb. 29 or 0 transiting into another cusp sign matters in a big way i think.

we have venus sextile uranus so i this points to a modern look at relationships. we both require freedom and independance in partnerships. i need a busy workaholic man not one who will work from home lol i need him to be able to entertain himself when i cant. so its important. iam self sufficient and dont get lonely too often. bored yes. so a man who constantly needs a companion is not for me.

my love interest all of them actually except for one have been workaholics. long days and that works best. seems to be a trend for me.

taurus rules my chart and my sun sign is in the 1H but in very early gemini degrees 3 i think... with a cancer moon it takes alot for me to enter willingly to a longterm relationship. i dont commit on a dime but once i do iam loyal and steadfast. the rest is just life or an unfaithful partner that clearly deserved the boot. the lack of reproducing a child and financial stability by him also hindered another relationship. my goal in relationships have been to have a baby and family life that has been a very difficult step. as i have NN in cancer. so i feel the pull strongly. if he cannot give me what i want i end up walking. i cannot stay for the sake of staying and waste my years with no baby ring or house. i rather go at it alone. i think this is explained by ASC in taurus and cancer moon. plus the libra stellium which includes saturn.

this current partner with a gemini moon, gemini DSC and uranus in 1H our history was we met young so he wasnt ready we split. (venus retro)
second time baby planing and the wedding freaked him out so we split (mercury in pisces retro and saturn retro in scorpio)
third time. (uranus retro saturn forward) i think he is ready now lol his Solar return ASC conjuncts his natal ASC in scorpio so a rebirth and ending his fears i think transformation into a new man also his NN is at a karmic degree depending on house system early leo or late cancer. so i find it interesting.

in our synastry he is saturn more so he restricts and delays alot of my family plans. with another guy we had uranus in scorpio 5H an that denies producing children so no hope in being with him if he doesnt want a baby. iam out!

yes 6H is a house of service and everyday work. i actually dont know why the sun is considered bad here. from what i undertand seems like a relationship is work on a regular basis and achieving happiness and stability is a nice goal to work towards as a couple. brad pitt and angelina jolie have composite 6H so its interesting.

but what kinda freak me out was the natal promise of the marriage partner. in my natal thats what i picked up a health issue. i would stay with him regardless. i just want some clues now...

what you say about scorpio and accepting endings... is interesting. Pluto played a major role 3 years ago when saturn entered scorpio 7H. my relationship ended... he is on his way out now. halfway done at 19/20 degrees now and no longer retro i believe so its been easier. my relationship picked up hain and we are rebuilding 'us' again.

in composite we have scorpio on the 10H so all this rebirth ending and acceptance have been big themes. seperately and together.

so a big theme with scorpio ive noticed in my history is allowing freedom and learning to trust a partner by letting go of control. that respecting personal indepence and trust in a relationship can be achieved and go hand in hand. my venus in aries allows me to let go and move on quickly but Its harder with heavy scorpio influence but not impossible.

Ronia said:

P.S. Oh, Minderwiz, you never told me about those "fruitful" signs before! My horaries on "WIll I marry again" have always been firm "no", though.

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Well the answer to your question is 'yes' in terms of your natal chart - or at least assuming that live in relationships of any duration count as 'marriage' and from the point of view of Mr. Lilly

The quotes I took are actually from his third book on Nativities, but I don't think it's widely different from what he says in his Book 2 on Horaries.

He uses the medieval (and I think it probably dates back to Hellenistic times) break down of sign qualities. Fruitful signs are all the Water Triplicity.

Barren signs are Gemini, Virgo, and Leo,

All the others are neutral. So if your significators had been in barren signs the answer would be 'no marriage', if they were mainly in barren signs the odds would be against it, or marriage with difficulty. Yours are in fruitful signs so they are very promising and indeed promising of of several relationships.

Now that doesn't answer the question 'will it be X?' but as a general
statement of your life's expectancy it's, well....fruitful

There are a number of other qualities of signs that used to be used but have since got lost, such as bestial, humane and mute.

You were right to point out that the sixth is not just illness, by the medieval period it was associated with slaves, and it is from that link that the modern usage of 'service' comes. However it is 'service' in the sense of servants or underlings (such as people who work for you or under your direction).

Something I came across recently is that Hellenistic Astrologers used to associate it with travel (which they did with all cadent houses, not just the ninth and the third. However in the case of the sixth and the twelfth, that travel was not necessarily a good experience.

Returning to the issue of ill health, the ruler of the seventh in the sixth might indicate marriage to a doctor or a nurse or some other medical professioal (as they deal with ill health) and I've come across a couple of charts where the placement in the sixth was that of a medical professional, rather than actual ill health.

I suggest we stick with the natal chart for now. Mainly because a synastry will never ever promise a marriage, no matter how beautiful it is. It's just a dynamic which may or may not deliver depending on the natals, always. You asked about marriage in your natal. I don't know if there is an answer as I don't have your chart and I'm not very good in reading a chart when described but it seems you already have some kind of system developed, so go ahead with it and it will show how it works. Or apply it to friends's charts who are already married and see if it works or not and why.

The issue with devoting versus being on one's own is more Sun versus Pluto to me. As I said before a Sun opposing the ruler of the Dsc, more so a Scorpio ruler, is not going to bring the devotion Scorpio requires. So, with or without any Uranus/Venus aspects it will be still playing out. Without knowing the chart, it's impossible to judge who will prevail and how it will be resolved, if at all. Taurus is stubborn and too heavy for the changes Scorpio requires. Good luck!

P.S. I'm not into composites, to be honest. I abandoned them long time ago when I realized that having slow planets close to each other, as with any partner my age or close to my age, will always produce a similar result. It didn't make sens eto me to rely on a midpoint.

Minderwiz said:

Well the answer to your question is 'yes' in terms of your natal chart - or at least assuming that live in relationships of any duration count as 'marriage' and from the point of view of Mr. Lilly

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Yes, but it's still an issue with our modern relationships and I haven't found a way to resolve this issue yet. I haven't found any proof in the many charts I have that there is a difference between marriage and committed relationship. Very frustrating. And absolutely no way to tell people (myself included) if they will have more than one marriage or if the chart simply reflects marriage+ committed relationships, all in one basket.

Minderwiz said:

Now that doesn't answer the question 'will it be X?' but as a general
statement of your life's expectancy it's, well....fruitful

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Now, that is actually the important question! Too bad we have no answer! May be it's time to ask a horary, as absurd as it may sound, it will at least have an answer. LOL

Minderwiz said:

You were right to point out that the sixth is not just illness, by the medieval period it was associated with slaves, and it is from that link that the modern usage of 'service' comes. However it is 'service' in the sense of servants or underlings (such as people who work for you or under your direction).

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Yes, it is, but by definition. I do have my own keywords after all thes years with other people's charts and since I'm most often asked to do synastries, and many of them already played out, I developed my own understanding of the service/support a 6th house ruler+aspects can deliver in a relationship. In addition, it's quite a common thing for one of the partners to actually be on the giving side. Not to offend anyone but it often fits with the "serving, service" definition. I don't see it as a bad thing as someone has to do the everyday work. Even by order, it's always looked interesting to me that the 6th supports the 7th, if you think about it. It is the preceding one.

Minderwiz said:

Something I came across recently is that Hellenistic Astrologers used to associate it with travel (which they did with all cadent houses, not just the ninth and the third. However in the case of the sixth and the twelfth, that travel was not necessarily a good experience.

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I know astrologers who see the 12th as "far from homeland not by choice". I've never personally seen a chart to prove it, though.

Minderwiz said:

Returning to the issue of ill health, the ruler of the seventh in the sixth might indicate marriage to a doctor or a nurse or some other medical professioal (as they deal with ill health) and I've come across a couple of charts where the placement in the sixth was that of a medical professional, rather than actual ill health.

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True. Or a marriage to an employee, for that matter. Or to anyone in service of the querent. It may be a plumber. A hairdresser the querent simply adores. And so on.