Request Regarding The Alchemical Tarot

Hello Noby,

you have a PM
But dont you think that on this forum it is more about sharing than demanding

Best regards

noby said:

And if I ever was to locate and buy a copy of the Alchemical Tarot, as long as it was still OOP, one of the first things I would do would be to scan and share the images. So many people want some kind of access to these images, and it would be so easy to do these days with our access to the Internet! So I'm kind of surprised no one has done this yet.

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Hey Noby,

Very torn about whether to post here. But I think it's important.

I actually had been thinking about your thread today because I was getting myself geared up to scan images for you to study and because I know I can't. I love love love the Alchemical Tarot with an enduring passion. But there's something that should be said here. The reason the posting hasn't been done might be because it's illegal. Scanning cards and distributing them (even for no money) is a violation of copyright at the most basic level.

Thing is, I'm conflicted about this. In fact I recently emailed a PDF of a different deck to another Aeclectician, but only because (since the original deck is used in the RPG community) the scans themselves have been distributed online pretty openly for the past 6 years or so. I sent the PDF for exactly the purpose you describe: research and analysis of an OOP deck that just does NOT become available at a reasonable price often. Where's the harm?

This is going to sound more castigating than I mean it to, but there's something vitally important to consider.

Mr. Place actually makes his living off licensing his intellectual property, including the Alchemical. As much as the spirit of sharing knowledge moves me, I wanted to dig out my scanner and send cards winging your way. I do think it's ludicrous that people who want this deck can't pick it up at Barnes & Noble for $15... but I'm also a working writer and I've had my plays done illegally "under the wire" by well-intentioned people. That's called theft. It actually harms the artist more than anyone. This deck didn't fall out of the sky; it represents many many years of Mr. Place's work and mojo and sweat and blood.

People who work in the creative world struggle for scraps of recognition and recompense. Distributing work randomly and freely to all comers chisels away at their livelihood. Were you to email Mr. Place (who reads these boards occasionally) and ask his permission to "license" scans for study, perhaps he'd be willing. One can make the arguument that by distributing virtual Alchemical Decks we could initiate a grassroots movement to get them reprinted (cf Jeannette's oft-quoted post about the likelihood of that). I've also been thinking about all this becuause AS a writer I think that there's a radical shift coming in how we handle intellectual property (hence all creative work) in the decades to come. The internet cannnot be contained and I'm not suggesting it should. And we've ALL made mix tapes/CDs and given them to friends. So there is a shift in the paradigm coming. But there is a reason that every deck in the world isn't just posted for consumption: it's a crime, even if it's a crime for stupid reasons.

God this all sounds more negative than I mean it to! I am psyched that you're gonna have an opportunity to study the deck. And I guess in a way I'm apologizing for not scanning it myself. But I've been burned so many times by people who "didn't know" they were ripping someone off. I just thought it was a point worth mentioning.

Respectfully,

Scion

Scion, you're right about copyrights issues and the right of Robert Place to earn a living from his art - but this deck is out of print. Whenever someone sells a hoarded copy for 100$, Robert Place gets not a penny for it. So, although it might help the seller make a living, it has nothing to do with copyright and the right of the artist to be paid for his (wonderful) artistic work (yours and his )

What I don't understand is - since it is out of print, why doesn't Mr Place scan it on his site? This seems strange to me. Unless (please G-d/dess!) a new edition is underway?

True and true, Lady Wisdom! But there are two different issues here. Annoying as they are, the exorbitant prices for the deck have nothing to do with the scanning of the deck. Although they make the scanning infinitely more attractive as an option.

While the sellers benefitting from the prices make it hard to acquire the deck, the difficulty doesn't make "borrowing" the intellectual property any less illegal. And in fact, while Place does not benefit directly from the scalpers bumping the price of hoarded decks, he does gain the notoriety of a man who creates obsessively-pursued decks. And believe me that fame (the greek kleos is actually a better term) is extremely valuable to an artist. . But your point is well taken.

I imagine Mr. Place doesn't post it because he doesn't want it randomly distributed. But that's only a guess. He seems to be very protective of his work on the whole.

And PLEASE let the phantom reprint be a reality.

Scion

I don't think anyone who has posted on this thread has come across as too negative --except perhaps myself! I was feeling grumpy earlier today, and I can see that coming out in how I worded my post. It sounds somewhat self-righteous and bitchy as I read it now. I apologize for letting my mood distort what I was trying to get across. And it's kind of stupid to bitch at people and ask for a favor at the same time, isn't it?

And let me be clear--I don't think anyone should have to scan or share the cards. And I agree with your concerns about intellectual property issues, Scion. I'm certainly not one of those folks who thinks that just because it can be shared for free on the Internet that no one should have to pay for it. And I don't regard Robert Place's (or anyone's, for that matter) art as a "product" for me to just take and grab and have. It's a work of the heart and spirit and as such is truly priceless.

Even though it looks like someone is going to come through with some scans for me, I think I'll still also write to Mr. Place with some of the suggestions that have come up here for ways people could access these images and for him to directly receive the money for it, whether that's paid web access to high-quality scans, the ability to buy a poster with all the cards, or whatever. Without his efforts, none of us would have the ability to appreciate the beauty and insight that come through in them.

And I also appreciate the patience and the generosity of the folks here!

noby said:

I was feeling grumpy earlier today, and I can see that coming out in how I worded my post. It sounds somewhat self-righteous and bitchy as I read it now.... And let me be clear--I don't think anyone should have to scan or share the cards.

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But you didn't ! You weren't. I was really torn because your posts are always so intelligent and resonant and I WANTED to scan them cause I was dying to hear your take on them. Which is of course why I was conflicted. Blah blah.

noby said:

I think I'll still also write to Mr. Place with some of the suggestions that have come up here for ways people could access these images and for him to directly receive the money for it, whether that's paid web access to high-quality scans, the ability to buy a poster with all the cards, or whatever.

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Awesome! That's a fantastic idea (n.b.: especially the poster idea). Very curious to hear what he has to say...

Thanks for not being offended at my deranged Ode to Intellectual Property. I've been slightly pins and needles since posting it cause I was worried I'd been pushy and rude (as I often am. ) Very relieved that you understood.

Scion

Up until recently, even Mr Place did not have a copy. I recently traded my copy for 2 of his prints simply because I never used the deck and I knew he really wanted one. I had met him at the Reader's Studio in NYC and he shared how he did not have a copy and could not afford one, just like the rest of us. I received mine for the list price so I couldn't in good conscionce sell it to him for more than I purchased it for.

I had another copy that I "donated" to the forum. I had also found this copy and gotten it for list price. I sold it to a fellow Aeclectic member in return they made a $70 donation to the forum.

I am not trying to brag here, I am just trying to point out that we don't all try to make money off of rare decks. Sometimes it goes to good use!

Who knows, maybe Mr Place will scan the deck now that he has one!

Scion, in my opinion, if you're anything, you're too nice, not "pushy and rude." Actually, it seems that the people on this forum fall all over themselves to be gentle with one another. Which is wonderful--although it can be problematic, because sometimes the thing a person most needs is a firm, unapologetic slap!

Mimers, that's wonderful. And sad and funny at the same time that Mr. Place himself couldn't even get a copy of the deck of cards he created! I'm so glad you were able to get him a deck.

I probably never would have done it except for one experience here at Aeclectic.

I had come back from a workshop where we used The Greenwood deck to journey into. The experience for me was life altering and I was very sad when I found out that I could not purchase the deck because it was out of print. I posted about my experience here on the forum and someone pm'ed me and gave me their Greenwood deck out of the goodness of their heart! I have vowed to return that kindness any way I can hence I gave Mr Place my copy for a very reasonable exchange.

If you had posted earlier I may just have had a deck for you! So sorry you did not post sooner!

Good luck and remember that if you are meant to have this deck it will come your way. I truely believe that.

Take care,
Mimi

In the spirit of celebrating and sharing knowledge and insight on this particular topic, here is a link to the paper I wrote on alchemical imagery for the history class titled "Alchemists, Magicians, Scientists" which I took last semester. It includes information about alchemical practices and imagery from sources and perspectives which might not be so readily available or apparent outside of an academic setting (all sources are thoroughly footnoted, and there is a works cited as well), so it may be of interest to those here interested in the subject of alchemy.

"Alchemical Imagery: A Web of Meaning"

Works Cited