From Education to Tarot

kwaw

Bernice said:
Well Huck, I do think that the Chinese were known to have *recorded* eclipses & such-like phenomena long before the 'west', and certainly before Samuel Heinrich Schwabe in 1843.

But you were not talking about the solar~lunar 18/19 cycles that were discovered among the ancients both east and west (and some suggest may have influenced the positioning of the moon and sun cards at positions 18/19), but the more recently discovered sun spot cycles. As far as I know there are no records of such among the ancients or anyone up to their discovery in the 19th century. One can speculatively suggest it was possible, but Huck's question was 'is it likely', that is 'probable'. While it may be possible, I think it improbable.
 

Bernice

Highly improbable then. What a shame. It was an interesting (and quite exciting) speculation that the trumps may have been derived from some educational 'Justinian code' cards.

So, another 'lead' to be discarded as to why, at some point in time, there was some unrecorded agreement to finally settle on 22 trumps.

Are we sure that the images in the book are those of Thomas Murner?


Bee :)
 

Huck

Bernice said:
Can these images really be the cards of Thomas Murner (1502) ?
If they were used as a flash-card system to teach the Justinian code, is it not possible that certain sections of society would have been aware of them (and the code), and incorporated something of the system into their 'playing' cards of the 16th century?

The whole is about the use of a 10x12 matrix for a specific educational aim (Justinian's laws), added by a "herold" card (as the description tells it) - whatever reason this had.
Probably Murner knew about decks, which added a card outside of the normal matrix, for instance Trionfi card versions with a function for the Fool or the contemporary Master PW deck with his two external cards, woman with death and city heraldic of Cologne.

He surely was not the first, who used a 10x12-matrix. For instance this appeared also in the Chinese 60 year calendar, as already said, much earlier.

But Murner was a man with fantasy and sense for foolish contexts ... he even caused Kenneth Mackenzie to alter the role of the Fool in the 19th century Tarot with tremendous consequences for the 20th. Well, it's true magic, how literature can jump over centuries and cause something despite the condition, that an author and his time had long gone.
 

Rosanne

The cards in the book by Bellenghi are not in a book- they have backs.
The Author calls them Naibi cards. The are, in this, case obviously Geograpical in nature. They do not appear to have any religious base.
The Card with the Sun at the top is card No. 8 and refers to the belly of Europa. Card No 9 is the knees of said Europa and the corresponding information is underneath Death and his Scythe.
Irlanda ha due partz
Scozia ha duz partz principali
and are called Nghil Terra (the dark lands???)
Mary Greer has mentioned this guy (the Author) in her bibliography.
I guess she has the book.
I had not seen before these so called Naibi cards, which I guess the word Naipes comes from. They look very early- but they might not be.

The point of this thread was to question the premise that Tarot is a fusion of some of these educational cards with the numeral cards- right at the beginning.
If anyone has some pictures of Naibi cards, which were apparently around in 1299- I would love to see them. Maybe they were cut out of a book- I do not know; I have not seen any before.
Looking at these cards from eyes in 2010 they appear quite humorous. I am curious to know what country claims her bottom as that is numbered NO 11.
Strength or Justice????? :rofl:
~Rosanne
 

Huck

Ah, well ...

I think, I have it.

62 + 3 special (backs or what? additional info to heraldic) cards of it are in "Il Tarocchino di Bologna", by Andrea Vitali - Terry Zanetti 2005

Date: Bologna 6 agosto 1725, -
Title: L'Utilo col diletto, ossia geografica intreccia del nel giuco del Tarocchi ... etc.

Germany has a globe or earth, not the sun.
"62" ... cause it's a Tarocchino di Bologna, not a Tarot

All small Arcana present heraldic shields
The 22 trumps show a geographic presentation of the world.

1 Putti-Love ... il Mondo
2 Justice ... Terra
3 Fortitudo ... Il nuovo Mondo (= America)
4 Chariot ... Veccio Mondo (= old World with 3 continents)
5 1st Moor ... Europe
6 Moon ... Spain
7 Angel ... Italy
8 Sun ... France
9 Death ... England
10 Globe or Earth (= Imperator ? or better = "World") ... Germany
11 Hanging Man ... North Europe Scandinavia
12 Hermit ... Russia
13 Wheel ... Polonia
14 Star ... Hungary
15 Devil ... Turkey
16 Lightning ... All Islands
17 Temperance ... All Water
18 2nd Moor ... America
19 3rd Moor ... Africa
20 4th Moor ... Asia
21 Fool ... reigning forms (Monarchy, Despoty etc.)
22 Pagat as teacher (?) ... capitals of the countries

As I said it, they didn't like the English and the Scandinavians and the Osmans.
 

sapienza

How interesting. I'd love to see scans, I wonder if there are any?
 

Rosanne

Thanks Huck!
I think it is a bit rum( sneakily odd) of the author to use cards from 1725, to illustrate a point of debate about the origins of Tarot. If it is thought that Education cards or Naibi were combined with 56 numerals in the 15th Century to create Tarot- then it would seem that a 14th/15th century example would be important. Every other plate in the book has accurate provenance and date.

~Rosanne
 

Huck

Rosanne said:
Thanks Huck!
I think it is a bit rum( sneakily odd) of the author to use cards from 1725, to illustrate a point of debate about the origins of Tarot.

True ... it's too far off. The whole runs in the year, when Bolognese card makers are forbidden to use Pope and Papesse and they replace Empress-Emperor-Pope-Papesse against 4 Moors. So it's a sort of "reformation deck" ... possibly even an ironic reaction. The whole row of the trumps is confused.

If it is thought that Education cards or Naibi were combined with 56 numerals in the 15th Century to create Tarot- then it would seem that a 14th/15th century example would be important. Every other plate in the book has accurate provenance and date.
~Rosanne

Well ... take the Boiardo and Sola Busca deck. The player is confronted with a lot of persons of history. Perhaps he knows some, but probably not all. So the deck helps to know these persons and the player automatic adapts "educational content". The socalled Mantegna Tarocchi is similar. The Michelino deck teaches "Greek Gods".

And the usual Tarot (that what we see as usual Tarot, but ... as discussed by us ... there is in the begin no usual Tarot), this developed in the gray zone between "card prohibition" and "allowed game" and a socially accepted game was chess.
So for a strong part it developed from a chess perspective, in some cases combining it with the "new idea" of Trionfi celebrations and contents of Petrarca's poem "Trionfi".
And beside this education the decks presented heraldic, which in the modern allegory would be the "who's the boss here" - question and has its similarity to the logi of Coca-Cola, McDonalds, Mercedes and Ford and to the presidential campaigns of Bush and Obama of nowadays. So it educated economy and politic.

I don't know, if we have the same understanding of "Naibi". La baraja, juego de cartas and juago de naipes are modern Spanish expressions for a card deck. In older texts the word "naipes" took variants in spelling, so also "Naibi" and this word and its variations appeared also occasionally elsewhere, also in Italy (especially famous: 1379 Viterbo).
There is some suspicion from our side, that "naipes" / "Naibi" might have been used for saraszen cards or cards in the Latin suit and other decks were addressed with carta, but it's only suspicion. Naipes was not used in Germany and other Northern countries, as far I know.
 

Huck

DCP_4751.jpg


40 Euro plus transport at ebay
http://cgi.ebay.it/Tarocco-Geografi...ItemQQimsxZ20100301?IMSfp=TL100301143001r4819
... said to be a limited edition of 300 (?)

... .-) ... for this money you get more, if you buy Andrea Vitali's book, which presents more than one deck in rather good quality. "362 illustrazioni a colori"

http://www.edizionimartina.com/EDIZIONI_MARTINA/DettagliTesti/258.asp


See also Willshire's description:
http://books.google.com/books?id=3b...=utile col diletto tarocchi geografia&f=false
 

Cerulean

Here is the book Roseanne is talking about, English version

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5644733-cartomancy

A simple search on google.com...am away, so have to follow up on the link later and check on what's being talked about here.. Hope it helps for understanding the author's view and works under discussion.

Cerulean