The Tarot symbols origin

Well ... 'supposes' should link together ... I really don't get post#208 or the point of it or the mental workings behind points 1 - 9 or how they link together or what the conclusion is?

Do you get it G. ? Perhaps you could explain it to me if you do

It can be very exhilarating to hop, skip and jump through cultures and millennia seeing connections and listening to the echo of resonating archetypes. This type of thing can add layers of meaning to the cards and impart a transcendent glow to tarot. But it says nothing about why those particular 22 images were encoded in a card game in the early 15th century.

I doubt that archetypes are universal. Just look at the different conceptions of the dragon between European and Chinese mythology. If you showed the Hanged Man or the Tower to someone living in an isolated tribe who never had contact with western civilization, would they tell the same story about it that we tell? The Tower would probably remind an Aztec of sacrificed prisoners being tossed down the pyramid steps to provide much-needed protein for the masses. If you showed the Hanged Man to a 15th century Italian, he might say it reminded him of the time the Duke put down a rebellion and had all the rebels painted hanging upside down on the city walls. Neither of these stories has much to do with the mystic-occult meanings that have been overlain on the cards in recent centuries. If Europeans separated by a few centuries can't agree on what the cards mean, then we probably aren't dealing with universal archetypes, but with images that are very specific to one time and place.

In my opinion, if you want to do tarot history, you start with the time and place where it was born. Exploring the art, literature and religious beliefs of that period should keep one busy for decades.

Sherryl said:

In my opinion, if you want to do tarot history, you start with the time and place where it was born. Exploring the art, literature and religious beliefs of that period should keep one busy for decades.

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Exactly!

I don't mind a bit of sandbox, but when doing historical research it only goes so far. Eventually someone one has to start finding some kind of evidence to support it. Or at least start narrowing the field to a time and place in which to look for evidence.

The problem comes when a person thinks they can convince historians to their point of view simply by repeating their premise and drawing analogies from different times and places, but never by doing the actual historical research that would solidify the theory. It is the insistence that *all one needs* is a convincing argument or a forced analogy in the face of all evidence to the contrary that starts straining the limits of the discipline of historical research.

Our known history can be in error and certainly has room for expansion. But what is needed to change what we know historically speaking?

Recursive Humor

Ahhh, but the quirk in this line of inquiry zeroes in on a curious graft between the ‘Book of Formations’ (Sepher Yetzirah), Tarot, and certain legends concerning the mathematician-philosopher Pythagoras. Though the ‘occult’ doctrine embedded within the Hebrew tablature of 22 letter-symbols (numbered 0-21), and the figurate forms derived from their typology, presents a system unto itself, with or without the ‘Book of Thoth’, the utility of a 22 card deck ought be apparent for practicing its’ ars memoriae, however arcane.

What plagues this ‘sandbox’, whichever its intentions, is the lack of a coherent reckoning, plainly stated, of how this hidden cipher for constructing mandalas from ancient alphabets functions as a mnemonic device; and, by extension, when (not if) this practice influenced the design of Tarot.

In past postings I’ve erupted frustration from the suspicion that most “serious historians” are aware of that occult doctrine, but choose not to discuss it - either from some misplaced academic pride in debunking the mystics, a stigma associated with decrypting alphabets, allegiance to a fraternal oath of secrecy, or, at best, adherence to the strict acid test for determining historiographic legitimacy. Whatever your reasons, the gig is up, so ease up already.

Comically, though trying to prove any of this is akin to demonstrating ancient Egyptian knowledge of pi or phi, there is that devious streak of humor running through its allegorical connivance, recursively echoed in alchemical emblem, mythopoetic heraldry, or calendrical numerology. “Naturally”, whether you are led to believe any of this or not, there remains that ‘hidden doctrine’ - of which only fools dare speak - carefully concealed within our recursive vaults of “immortal truth”, enciphering forbidden secrets.

May providence grace you...

The true Knowledge was never hidden. The thing is that not many people had/have ability to understand it directly. The fact that modern architects/engineers still do not have a clear idea how the Egypt pyramids were erected (for instance) does not mean that ancient Egyptians have hidden the knowledge about it, the one was just lost. The researchers will get it, sooner or later.

I base my standpoint on the knowledge of Vadim Maitreya , who advocates it for 20 years already. Will repeat myself, but, according to him, while deep meditation he immersed himself into that part of the soul that does not die. He has seen the ultra-thin plane, which is the primary world of creation. After seeing it he came to the conclusion that the people who have reached it, tried to explain this plane using the available means, that originated religions. Thus, no one invented/imagined anything.

Arcana Tarot is also an attempt to show by visualization the 22 laws of the primary world of creation. V. Maitreya states that there is a clear sequence of 22 Laws and this sequence is confirmed by all ancient sources. Narrowing the area of the research predominantly by Christian influence (which is the knowledge of semi-initiated people) on Tarot phenomena is limiting yourself in finding the truth.

Not by chance the third rune is Thurisaz. This is a directed cosmic power. Hammer Mjolnir which is the Thor's lightning is a symbol of the creative energy of masculine and a protective symbol. This is an active energy, pointing down (inside) and materializing the plans. This rune is a transmitter and a carrier of energy. Thurisaz operates on the border of consciousness: it could not be called neither completely "unconscious" or completely "conscious ." This rune has a phallic shape and is associated with the forces of fertility. Thor himself is closely associated with fertility. We may also remember the fairytale about Sleeping Beauty who fell asleep from the injection spike. The Germans associated it with the tower (Turm).

In Maya they called it Ak'bal - a night, or a home. This is a reflection of the underworld where sooner or later things take their mirror images. Hell House is a personal underworld where the ego wears a mask of personality. The underworld is the Holy Land , where there is an underground spring that originates strength and development. The First Father created his northern home - the great darkness in the center of the universe. It's a good day for coming home - to the inner world of the soul.

ravenest said:

Well ... 'supposes' should link together ... I really don't get post#208 or the point of it or the mental workings behind points 1 - 9 or how they link together or what the conclusion is?

Do you get it G. ? Perhaps you could explain it to me if you do

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These analogies show the same symbolism while using different ways of explanation. For example, "The Tower" Arcana can be named as Tower with Runes, and Home with Maya, although the essence is the same.

Moonstranger said:

These analogies show the same symbolism while using different ways of explanation. For example, "The Tower" Arcana can be named as Tower with Runes, and Home with Maya, although the essence is the same.

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I realise that is what you were trying to do ... what I didn't get was the internal evidence in your examples ... the only common 'same symbolism while using different ways of explanation' seemed to be some idea of descent.

If one would like a good example how to show same symbolism while using different ways of explanation , which requires more than a list (maybe they link inside your head - which is why you think it obvious to others?) but also an explanation of why they seem linked ... in more detail, objectively, I recommend the works of Joseph Campbell and Patrick Harpur.

ravenest said:

I realise that is what you were trying to do ... what I didn't get was the internal evidence in your examples ... the only common 'same symbolism while using different ways of explanation' seemed to be some idea of descent.

If one would like a good example how to show same symbolism while using different ways of explanation , which requires more than a list (maybe they link inside your head - which is why you think it obvious to others?) but also an explanation of why they seem linked ... in more detail, objectively, I recommend the works of Joseph Campbell and Patrick Harpur.

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I do not want to jump through cards now in order not to dislocate their right sequence, which is evidenced by all the ancient religions. Except of the Christianity, Islamism and Judaism, those are of semi-dedicated people.

As for Campbell research in comparative mythology, he follows the myths, showing their identical features, but does not understand the essence. For example, in Chapter 2 "Initiation" of his book "The hero with the thousand faces", part 2 “ The Meeting with the Goddess” he’s written:
"The ultimate adventure, when all the barriers and ogres have been overcome, is commonly represented as a mystical marriage of the triumphant hero-soul with the Queen Goddess of the World...”

In fact, Queen Goddess of the World is the anima, the second half of the soul. All forces of unconsciousness are inside her, and the gods too. Uniting with her means to master all the forces of nature, including clairvoyance and spiritual knowledge.

Following the same part: "… This is the crisis at the nadir, the zenith, or at the uttermost edge of the earth, at the central point of the cosmos, in the tabernacle of the temple, or within the darkness of the deepest chamber of the heart."

This point is located in the center of the “field”. Only at that point it is possible to unite with the second half of the soul, what also means is to become a "knower of the field." This is also written in Bhagavad Gita, when Krishna explains to Arjuna about the field (Kshetra) and the knower of it (Kshetrajna). Jumping ahead of myself, the meeting of anima-animus is the Devil arcana (5 Arcana).

One can read many of similar books that reveal the myths, but leave non-acquired the secret gnosis of the Soul. The only dedicated person has a True Knowledge which all these myths are based on.

Your answers are very interesting, yet still miss the point. As a lay-student of the occult I can appreciate the seed of what you seem to be saying, yet it still isn't historical research. Words like "soul" aren't historical, and unless a clear common ancestor for all human symbolic ideas can be derived, it is all metaphysical; good in its place, but certainly not historical research. What you are doing is using the Bible Code to "prove" that the world was created in six days.

I've asked this question before, but no one seems to know the answer. Which forum is appropriate for metaphysical speculation about Tarot? It certainly does not belong in Historical Research, but none of the other forums seem to fit either.

Last spring when this issue came up, Solandia decided that Talking Tarot would be appropriate.