The Tarot symbols origin

Most of the people who cared deeply about historical research as a discipline with established methodologies and standards have left the tarotforum or only post occasionally in one or two threads.

This area seems to be changing to accord with the demands of those who want it to be something other than the established discipline of history - but rather a platform for personal philosophies, beliefs and ideologies: stories of where the tarot "might have" come from or what it "might have" been about, without regard to evidence except by rough analogies across time and space.

I only wish that "Historical Research" could be closed (but the precious archives kept), and that this section as it now exists be renamed to reflect the current trends: "Ideas regarding Tarot's History and Philosophy (no facts or evidence needed)"?

Well ... I think that is a great idea. But why not both.

Keep the history forum open for that and open a new one as you say.

Then the moderators can shift any thing historically inappropriate to the new forum.

Have you run your ideas past them?

I don't know how such things are decided but you would probably make a good moderator for the historical research forum. Have you put your hand up for that?

The reason I say that is the things that frustrate you about this forum seem to lie in the area of moderator responsibility and administrative decisions. One must also realise a business is being run here ... I said this the other day; I came on as a member of the public and got quiet surprised by the flotilla of offers and advertising ... and its 'flavour'... I know ... I know ; it's the internet and business depends on (nowadays) economic rationalism and what turns the money over.

ravenest said:

Have you run your ideas past them?

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Many times.

Teheuti said:

......

I only wish that "Historical Research" could be closed (but the precious archives kept), and that this section as it now exists be renamed to reflect the current trends: "Ideas regarding Tarot's History and Philosophy (no facts or evidence needed)"?

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Well I think that is a harsh wish.
I have asked why not a 'speculative sub forum' before and it has been Solandia's wish to have that in 'Talking Tarot'.
At least the historical section has stayed somewhat alive, which has surprised me, given there are other forums that are more dedicated to researching Tarot History.Those other forums have strong personalities that can take the joy of posting away. Aeclectic has always been more inclusive to all, it seems to me and there have always been nuggets of truth in people's meanderings. I know some are annoyed over the years with unbacked upped 'supposes'. (really bad grammer lol!)but no one has died from shock have they? If we must stay with strict bounds, given the nature of Tarot today, there will be little to attract with the accessibility to readable Tarot History. Screeds of data in jargon only of interest to a few (like merchants sale lists for example) are tedious. For most Tarot is a hobby not a thesis, and dreaming is a part of the joy to me at least. I certainly do not like the idea of an exclusive group, too narrow in the focus.
So less harsh is your idea Mary, of another area, with some lesser degree of facts and figures required.
~Rosanne

The first two pinned notes in this part of the forum might be useful.

One lists some good resources on tarot history.

The other, started by Teheuti, proposes some standards for historical research. There was disagreement on that thread about whether those standards are appropriate for this forum. (I think they are too restrictive and do not reflect how historical knowledge is generated.) At any rate, there was no concensus, no "rules" were established or standards required, and no single expert was appointed to grade the plausibility of posts in this forum.

So, while people can be asked to cite sources and evidence, there is no requirement that posters satisfy everyone. I think it's enough to note if you feel someone has not adequately defended a claim. Maybe they will clarify and all will be well--maybe not. We can make our own judgments about what is interesting & worth pursuing.

I don't think the problem is with speculation as such; it is speculation presented as though it were established fact. That was the trouble a few years ago when Robert Swiryn tried to explain his theory about how the Cathars influenced the development of Tarot. He presented it as established fact, whereas it was nothing of the sort. However, the subject might make an interesting 'historical' novel.

Teheuti said:

Many times.

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Maybe they are waiting for you to put your hand up for the job.

Once I complained that the toilets at work were dirty ... I was given key 12 ... great, my own private clean toilet ... nup, it was a key to the cleaning equipment room.

Moderator note

Please can we get back to the topic of the thread which is 'The Tarot symbols origin'?


Thanks.

Sulis - moderator

Sulis said:

Please can we get back to the topic of the thread which is 'The Tarot symbols origin'?

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A provable origin or a belief-based story? Creationism or evolution? There is nothing to research in a myth (either an old myth or a new one) - except if one examines the historical evolution of the story, for instance, how Antoine Court de Gébelin claimed one thing and then Eliphas Lévi claimed some variation or new twist.

I think we would all welcome some new factual evidence and data that can be researched regarding the origin of Tarot symbols. But what is meant "historically" speaking by origin?

Is the issue that of the first appearance of Sun as a symbol among humans, for instance? Or in the Middle East and Africa from the time of Ancient Egypt or before? Or in Europe from the period of Classical Greece? Or in Northern Italy in the High Gothic/Early Renaissance? Whole books on symbolism have explored the development of symbols that have appeared in Tarot cards of all periods up through today (see Cirlot, the Penguin Dicitionary of Symbols, etc.). We can explore what these books have to say about symbols in general.

Is "Tarot symbol" meant to narrow the field? If so, what is meant by Tarot symbol? How is Sun specifically a 'Tarot symbol' and not any of the myriad other manifestations of Sun as a symbol? Should it be defined as part of a specific body of work? Or as a human symbol from any historical period (see "origin" above)? Or a cultural symbol that is specific to time and place? Or as a private symbol: Sun makes me think of when I stayed at a beach town in Florida and the hot sand and the sound of waves and the languorous excitement I experienced.

If we are talking about the origin of the Tarot Symbols as the specific group of 22 Trionfos, then where are they first found as a set? Anything after that date is not relevant to an origins discussion (unless it is a later discovery of something earlier). Are they only Tarot symbols if seen in relation to each other? Or are we back to the dictionaries of symbols and archeological and anthropological reports of images?

We could explore all of literature before 1440 for the use of the Sun as a symbol. Should we exhaust one symbol before going on to a second one?