Legend; The Arthurian Study Group - The Judgement

Lyones

Originally posted by Sophie-David
That's an interesting study. Makes me wonder about how other decks would compare in their elements. One would think that a large majority of cards would contain earth, and not many with fire...

I took 5 of my decks and had a look through them to compare: Rider Waite has 26 cards with water in them, Sacred Circle 19, Ancient Egyptian 22, Vision Quest 21 and Robin Wood 24, compared to the Legends 38.

Originally posted by Sophie-David
I think you have put this well, replacement vs. renewal. Personally I'm not sure that I would see any difference in fear levels between the two, but that would depend on one's maturity - some might fear judgement a lot more than death!

Thanks David. hmmm ... I'm considering the fear factor - maybe it depends on one's priorities rather than maturity? :) ... and possibly also the way people deal with the fear? Death seems to deal with losses, or little deaths, which can come in many guises - loss of finances, faith, friends, ego, possibly even an attitude or mind-set, so it could be just the extremity of the circumstances? ... and would you see both Death and Judgement as liberating in some form?
 

RedMaple

There is one meaning of the Judgment card that has to do with a decision already being reached, although you might not be conscious of it yet. So perhaps that would be less scary than the sudden transformation that can come with the Death card.

Sophie-David -- I am a subscriber, and I'll take a look at your thread after I get some sleep.

The Web -- I remember my first trance/vision experience of the web -- I saw the entire universe connected star to star in a web -- it was very numinous, very alive, everything connected to everything. Each connection was like a jewel, like the drops of dew on a spiderweb, like the electrical connections at the synapses of nerve cells....A powerful image that I'm glad I will now see in the Moon card.

The Watercolors -- yes! The colors of England are of course often muted with the mist, the rain, fog -- all that water! And the moonlight, of course -- the subconscious. But then, Britain is an island -- living surrounded by water. A nice image for a human being -- instead of "no man is an island" (sorry John Donne) how about "everyone is an island" surrounded by the vast sea of spirit and consciousness....
 

Sophie-David

Lyones said:
I took 5 of my decks and had a look through them to compare: Rider Waite has 26 cards with water in them, Sacred Circle 19, Ancient Egyptian 22, Vision Quest 21 and Robin Wood 24, compared to the Legends 38.
Wow, that's quite a significant deviation! The other decks come in at between 25-30% water, closer to a "fair share", but Legend is almost 50% water. So not only is the medium and style watery, as WalesWoman pointed out, but the subjects are highly water filled also.

Lyones said:
Thanks David. hmmm ... I'm considering the fear factor - maybe it depends on one's priorities rather than maturity? :) ... and possibly also the way people deal with the fear? Death seems to deal with losses, or little deaths, which can come in many guises - loss of finances, faith, friends, ego, possibly even an attitude or mind-set, so it could be just the extremity of the circumstances? ... and would you see both Death and Judgement as liberating in some form?
I don't really see one card as more significant or extreme than the other, or more a cause for fear - I have little or no fear of either - but not so say that I don't joyfully choose life. Yes, I definitely see each card as liberating, but in different octaves. Having accepted death, it can be seductive - even when that is not appropriate, for sometimes it is time to build on what you have, not to start again. But as you suggested earlier, Judgement is the result of natural growth, a logical culmination.

In my meditational cycle, Judgement was a looking back and weighing of the journey, an opportunity to resolve remaining disunity and pain, a preparation for the final integration of the World. In my dreams the night before last, Judgement was expressed as the promise of a "my ship coming in", that I needed to be vigilant and ready, to keep watch, that a new cycle of growth would soon begin, a new journey into the ocean of the unconscious.

Since I finished the Legend Majors last night, I realized that I could from now on use them as a Majors Only deck and did my first readings with them tonight. They are definitely NOT for raising masculine energy, but are very feminine, almost unnervingly powerful and deep, as if I have just suddenly jumped up (or down) an octave to a new level of intuitive energy. My previous decks - Connolly, Tarot for Cats, and Blue Moon Tarot - while each in a diverse style and theme, all seemed to operate at the same energy level. I was quite surprised at the quantum difference in Legend: this is a serious, profound and challenging deck. This is interesting because I wasn't even sure I would be able to read with them - they seemed so alien, although obviously wonderful for meditation and dream work.
 

Sophie-David

Hello Again, RedMaple

Our posts just overlapped! How intriguing what you just mentioned below, it relates exactly to the dream of Judgement that I just described, the preparation and intention for my ship to come in:

RedMaple said:
There is one meaning of the Judgment card that has to do with a decision already being reached, although you might not be conscious of it yet.
RedMaple said:
Sophie-David -- I am a subscriber, and I'll take a look at your thread after I get some sleep.
How weird these time zones are, it must be quite late for you. Its just 8:45 PM here, but I'm already very tired and will wrap it up soon.

RedMaple said:
The Web -- I remember my first trance/vision experience of the web -- I saw the entire universe connected star to star in a web -- it was very numinous, very alive, everything connected to everything. Each connection was like a jewel, like the drops of dew on a spiderweb, like the electrical connections at the synapses of nerve cells....A powerful image that I'm glad I will now see in the Moon card.
How neat! Mine went through the moon into the planets, back through me into my community, back through me into the heart of the earth. The archetypes are what binds us together as one common world-soul.
 

RedMaple

Sophie-David said:
How neat! Mine went through the moon into the planets, back through me into my community, back through me into the heart of the earth. The archetypes are what binds us together as one common world-soul.

That's great. I felt totally connected, part of the web, but it extended infinitely through the stars.

do you know this poem by Rilke?

I live my life in growing orbits
that move out over the things of the world
I don't know if I shall ever achieve the last
but that shall be my attempt

I am circling around God
around the sacred tower
and I don't know yet
if I am a falcon, or a storm,
or a glorious song

**************

I'm not crazy about the tower as an image of God, but I love the circling, and the sense of your life getting larger and larger as you realize your connectedness to everything. I like also the last three images, the falcon, who seeks, the storm, that blows everything away, and at last, the glorious song. Hope you like it.
 

Lyones

Originally posted by Sophie-David
They are definitely NOT for raising masculine energy, but are very feminine, almost unnervingly powerful and deep, as if I have just suddenly jumped up (or down) an octave to a new level of intuitive energy.

Hi David,

I'm inclined to think that it's because of this that they work so well for spiritual and emotional matters as opposed to the harsher elements of some other decks. I found them very easy to bond with.

Originally posted by RedMaple
There is one meaning of the Judgment card that has to do with a decision already being reached, although you might not be conscious of it yet. So perhaps that would be less scary than the sudden transformation that can come with the Death card.

Oh, absolutely RedMaple, and you've just come up with the missing puzzle piece to a spread I was pondering - it fits perfectly! Thank you.
 

WalesWoman

I didn't notice this last night before shutting down! I slept in this morning since it's 18 F or -7C and the water is frozen...lol All this talk about water and emotions, immersion in the flow of life, awareness, intuition, this is great!

I laid out some of the cards we've been discussing and was struck by the difference between Judgement and Death. The Death card and the Tower are more closely related, image wise.

Judgement almost feels like a celebration, something uplifting, the promise of growth with the apple blossoms. I'm wondering if there is also some element of sacrifice when heeding the call...I just really noticed the figurehead of the barge, almost looking sort of like the crucifix, arms open in supplication, acceptance of what is to be. The gold working above this figure make me think of wings or the antlers of the Stag, another strong, pure uplift for the direction we need to go? How have I missed the water sprites? thinking they were the splash as the barge slices through the water, yet they seem to be supportive, holding it afloat as well as guiding it to the island. And the rock, to warn us to watch out for obstacles, or that the obstacles are only our excuses to avoid completion of what we really need to do?
Sophie-David said:
In my meditational cycle, Judgement was a looking back and weighing of the journey, an opportunity to resolve remaining disunity and pain, a preparation for the final integration of the World. In my dreams the night before last, Judgement was expressed as the promise of a "my ship coming in", that I needed to be vigilant and ready, to keep watch, that a new cycle of growth would soon begin, a new journey into the ocean of the unconscious.
I love this.

Lyones said:
With Death we have total change, a situation we may not want to accept nor go through, an extreme of dying to the "old" way of life, which can be a bit scary. Judgement feels more accepting of consequenses - without fear, looking forward - exciting even, being able to make positive decisions to see you through a change, deciding which path to take, taking the past and making it part of the future, improving what you already have. Judgement has more of a continuance about it - immediate movement, or natural conclusion, where, although things are happening with Death there seems to be more of a juncture where things end, sometimes abruptly and other things begin to grow, sometimes very slowly, a replacement more than the renewal of Judgement ... ?

Perhaps Death IS the call, the Hunter's Horn calling us to acceptance, bringing about the renewal and growth of the Judgement card. No matter how much we may fear it, we can't escape the inevitable decline and fall in order to create the coming of something new.

Now Death...Gwyn Ab Nudd and the Wild Hunt...whoa! These are much more fascinating and scarier than the spectural Grim Reaper I think, well sort of. Good card to talk about for the ending of the old year too!

This looks almost adventurous, even tho' if they caught sight of you, they would hunt you down. (hence, the adventure of hide and seek?) The storm clouds, lightening and thunder, the toumolt of emotion and suddeness of change appear on the Tower as well. The dragons fighting in the Tower, lighting a conflagration of the castle and in Death the castle is in ruins, abandoned, lifeless.

Red Maple said:
I live my life in growing orbits
that move out over the things of the world
I don't know if I shall ever achieve the last
but that shall be my attempt

I am circling around God
around the sacred tower
and I don't know yet
if I am a falcon, or a storm,
or a glorious song

I'm not crazy about the tower as an image of God, but I love the circling, and the sense of your life getting larger and larger as you realize your connectedness to everything.

I think the Tower is a great image for God...shaking us out of complacency, the lightening bolt of illumination, to discover what is real and what isn't, the battle of "good & evil", forcing us to look with and discover our realities and burn away the baggage we store in the attics, that gather dust and more webs. The things that bind us and blind us as well.
 

WalesWoman

This sort of ties a couple threads back together, going back and forth between some pages here, so I hope ...yes, this is the Judgment one. LOL

The Tower came into this and became it's own thread...but I think that what struck me is the message, the Call came from the lightening bolts, the revelations, the liberation from what imprisions us in the Tower, is what the Trumpet is proclaiming in Judgement. Release and Liberation and Renewal! The old self and ways are gone forever, there are no more illusions and sometimes that knowledge and experience is a real wipe out and you need all the help you can get to re-create your life.
 

inanna_tarot

WalesWoman said:
Judgement almost feels like a celebration, something uplifting, the promise of growth with the apple blossoms. .

Well, to the Celts, those elusive peoples, Death was the beginning, rather than the ending of life. They measured their days and calender by the moon, by the night. All the celebrations in celtic history start in the evening, so you have all Hallows Eve, which we start on the night of the 31st, but it continues on to the sunset of the 1st Nov. Death was not feared, death was welcomed to the celtic warrior. This could also link to how Arthur has returned to the Old religions of Britian in death.

On a personal note (druid in training knowledge coming to play), although Arthur died, he and his knights are rumoured in mythology to be in a deep sleep, healing from all the war wounds of their lives. They are asleep and safe on Avalon, in the mists and 'between the worlds' (their souls havent passed on) to be called on to come to life again when Britain is in great need.
Lots of Druid folk see that its not the actual Arthur, but its the spirit of Arthur that is always with us, dormant but still within our psyche to be woken up and rally against anything we believe to be wrong, so lots of us are active environmentalists, peace protesters etc.
The horn, could be a horn of mourning, or a horn to remind Arthur and the gang that when they next hear this horn they are to awaken and fight for Britain once more. Arthur was the last King that was through the union of the King and Land, maybe the land, the see, the sky mourn his loss of Arthur and Pagan Britian.
Maybe its only now that the other side of Judgement is coming into place, with the renewed interest and popularity of Paganism and their myths expanding and calling the hearts of others? We are always in many a spirial. :D I always find in readings that whilst Death is quick, Judgement can take AGES to fully complete, lots of evaluation comes with this card. I also link this card to reformation as well, because whats the point in evaluation if you dont impliment changes afterwards.

Sezo
x
 

Sophie-David

inanna_tarot said:
Well, to the Celts, those elusive peoples, Death was the beginning, rather than the ending of life. They measured their days and calender by the moon, by the night. All the celebrations in celtic history start in the evening, so you have all Hallows Eve, which we start on the night of the 31st, but it continues on to the sunset of the 1st Nov. Death was not feared, death was welcomed to the celtic warrior. This could also link to how Arthur has returned to the Old religions of Britian in death.
Hi Sezo

I think that is the wonderful gift of paganism, that death, darkness and the night are each cherished and held sacred. The Moon watches and regulates each one of these, marking their seasons with her quiet passion.

inanna_tarot said:
On a personal note (druid in training knowledge coming to play), although Arthur died, he and his knights are rumoured in mythology to be in a deep sleep, healing from all the war wounds of their lives. They are asleep and safe on Avalon, in the mists and 'between the worlds' (their souls havent passed on) to be called on to come to life again when Britain is in great need.
Yes, I often think of the story of the sleeping Arthur, the ancient spirit of Britain, as perhaps many did during the dark times of World War II, that he really did come to life when the nation faced invasion and destruction. So that particularly in the airborne Battle of Britain, fought by the few against the many, against impossible odds the land was saved. I am not in any sense wishing to glorify war, but simply honouring the quiet courage and tenacity with which the British civilians and armed forces defended their freedom and prevailed against the greater evil.

inanna_tarot said:
The horn, could be a horn of mourning, or a horn to remind Arthur and the gang that when they next hear this horn they are to awaken and fight for Britain once more. Arthur was the last King that was through the union of the King and Land, maybe the land, the see, the sky mourn his loss of Arthur and Pagan Britian.
That is a beautiful image, Sezo!

inanna_tarot said:
I always find in readings that whilst Death is quick, Judgement can take AGES to fully complete, lots of evaluation comes with this card. I also link this card to reformation as well, because whats the point in evaluation if you dont impliment changes afterwards.
While Death leads to the admitedly wonderous blessings of Temperance, the Judgement leads to the most incomparable and highest joy, perfect integration with the very heart of the Gaia, the World or Universe. This is indeed the slow evolutionary process that is our life's work.

Blessings
David