The meaning of the FISH card in love readings

Lee

ana luisa said:
I seem to be plagued by getting non-romantic cards in romance readings. I have lost count of the times the Emperor showed for romance where no man was involved. Let alone rules/regulations

More possibilities for creative thinking!

Does one person in the couple tend to dominate the other one? Does one person "wear the pants"? Does one of them have issues with their father or with authority figures that could impact the relationship?

These are the kind of things that add depth and sophistication to a reading and take it above the "you will meet a tall dark stranger" level.

ana luisa

Lee said:
More possibilities for creative thinking! Does one person in the couple tend to dominate the other one? Does one person "wear the pants"? Does one of them have issues with their father or with authority figures that could impact the relationship?

These are the kind of things that add depth and sophistication to a reading and take it above the "you will meet a tall dark stranger" level.

In this reading, I had no problem identifying the function of the Emperor. It was a reading for a lesbian couple, so, definitely, a more dominant force here.

kalliope

I've been slowly building up my Lenormand skills, and I'm determined to be pretty traditional in my approach. Lee, I think your post was a great example of how the traditional meanings can still give a wide variety of interpretations.

Other than money/prosperity issues potentially becoming an issue in the relationship, I think that the "abundance," "deep," or "deepening," keywords are likely important for love readings. And if you're doing card combinations as would be expected with Lenormand, it could be that it's adjective form is key and needs to be read with the nearby cards.

And just to throw another wrench in the mix, another traditional meaning set of the card is water, liquids, or alcohol, and in health readings it can mean alcoholism or substance abuse. If it keeps coming up in readings about a particular person, maybe it's a warning about potential problems in that area?

ana luisa

kalliope said:
And just to throw another wrench in the mix, another traditional meaning set of the card is water, liquids, or alcohol, and in health readings it can mean alcoholism or substance abuse. If it keeps coming up in readings about a particular person, maybe it's a warning about potential problems in that area?

That's a wonderful addition to my notebook ! Thanks !

Richard

I am very grateful for all the information so far in this thread. However, is it really so bad to read it intuitively, considering that Mlle Lenormand apparently used a truncated deck of ordinary playing cards, not the pretty picture cards we have today? Have we not perhaps imposed an imaginary structure on an imaginary deck? I suppose that's a dumb question. Sorry.

ana luisa

LRichard said:
I am very grateful for all the information so far in this thread. However, is it really so bad to read it intuitively, considering that Mlle Lenormand apparently used a truncated deck of ordinary playing cards, not the pretty picture cards we have today? Have we not perhaps imposed an imaginary structure on an imaginary deck? I suppose that's a dumb question. Sorry.

that's an excellent question. I do understand that the standard meanings may serve as a scaffolding for future readings and help at first. But, I don't see why not allow intuition have a go as well or instead. It's like giving colors to an artist and forbidding him to mix some, to control the amount of brush strokes, etc. Assuming reading cards is an art, of course.

kalliope

LRichard said:
I am very grateful for all the information so far in this thread. However, is it really so bad to read it intuitively, considering that Mlle Lenormand apparently used a truncated deck of ordinary playing cards, not the pretty picture cards we have today? Have we not perhaps imposed an imaginary structure on an imaginary deck? I suppose that's a dumb question. Sorry.

In general, I agree with you that people can do what they want, and can read how they want! You're right -- there may have been some imposition of structure on the deck and its meanings after Mlle. Lenormand's time. But whatever occurred at that point is what became the traditional method, and it seems like it's been pretty consistent since then, and that's what has made it such a unique system. (I'm no Lenormand historian, though, so I may be wrong.)

But I can also explain why I, personally, do not want to read the Lenormand intuitively, and why I'm interested in learning the traditional, well-established method (regardless of what Mlle. Lenormand herself actually did). The practical perspective and traditionalism is what attracted me to this deck. If I read it intuitively by the art, then it would feel no different to me than tarot, or an oracle deck. And for me, the specialness of Lenormand, and what makes it appealing as something different to learn, is the reading method. I like that it's basically learning a different language. Specific meanings, combined in a certain way to mean certain things when specific cards are next to each other. Creating noun-adjective-verb-adverb types of sentences. Etc. I like that the images are simple so that the "intuition" used with this method focuses on narrowing down the concept/meaning combinations, not on the symbolism of an artist's personal vision within the art. I like the grammatical structure of the method instead of using positional spreads, or non-positional intuitive layouts.

I enjoy reading tarot or oracles intuitively, don't mistake me, but I really like the challenge of doing this cool and very different thing with the Lenormand. It's only bad to read the Lenormand intuitively if you are trying to read it how it's been read historically, or are trying to learn the Lenormand method. If we go too far in the intuitive direction, then I think something essential about the uniqueness of the Lenormand will have been lost, and I would feel poorer for it.

Ronia

I beg you all pardon but absolutely every language in the world (and I'm a phylologist) has rules. It has a certain number of words which you have to learn and from there the combos are many. But you have to learn the words. Symbolical languages are even older than spoken ones but they also do have rules. Apologies to all intuition and else, I'm a very intuitive person but intuition without knowing the words is a mess. Intuition is priceless when you know your language by heart and just like with your mother tongue the right meaning comes to you naturally. But you already KNOW the language and the meanings of this word, and you didn't invent them, you learned the traditional meanings of the word. I hope I make myself clear.

I'm not considering myself an expert, I was just lucky to be a generational reader. I do keep learning my language every day.

The Fish, like every other Lenormand cards, has SPECIFIC meanings for love/relationship questions. Different ones for general, separate ones for "problems", etc. I don't think the Fish will show your mate is an alcoholic if you don't have problems with him, if you're just dating. Always stick to the question. Always!

P.S. Mlle Lenormand, from what we know from people's memoirs, was extremely definitive. I doubt she had even one sentence of the type "it could be that may be some day if you..." , very popular these days among readers. In fact, she stated events. Stated them. You will do that, this will happen then and then, etc.

P.P.S. Tarot is not different. You can't read Tarot looking at the pictures only because when you buy another deck, you will get lost. As a phylologist I find it fascinating to learn the ancient, ages, eras' old knowledge that hasn't changed. The symbols remained the same. Call me old fashioned but to me it matters that a woman or a man thousands years ago felt the same way when seeing a circle as I feel today.

ana luisa

By no means did I start this thread with the intention of creating dissent.

I have a high respect for people's opinions and love the fact that we each work differently. That's what makes the world such a unique place! I guess it all depends on who you are and how you operate. Some people do enjoy the structure, the grammatical rules and feel empowered by them. They do not restrain them but help. For others, the pull of the image and its power comes first and becomes a crucial part of the interpretation. And that includes me.
I used to read locks of hair on the floor...
I would like to believe that when I read a different meaning into a Lenormand card, that I am not disrespecting her work. On the contrary, I admire her legacy, I am most grateful for her selection of symbols and amazed at how rich they each can be.
As far as reading the Tarot, yes, unfortunately, I do need scenic pips. But I wouldn't mind using cards like these ones for reading:

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/margarete-petersen/

Having said that, I also appreciate learning the traditional meanings. I have thoroughly enjoyed the russian meanings provided by Ronia and yes, they have proved to be a valuable tool by providing me with a structure on which to work. They surely have their worth.

kalliope

Aww, I hope my post didn't come off like I was trying to start an argument about the endless intuitive/traditional divide!

I really just meant to try to explain why I personally ENJOY the structure and tradition and why I value it -- even if I don't have anything against intuitive reading on principle, and indeed sometimes use it in my other card reading. Exactly as you say, Ana, we are all different, work differently, have different inclinations, skills and aptitudes.

And Ronia, I don't think anyone meant to imply that there are languages without rules. There are, however, intuitive card readers who can and do read tarot without learning the standard meanings. But maybe they either a) developed their own system to read using their intuition, or b) use only the card images to read, using them as a springboard for their intuition each time. When the second group reads a different deck, they aren't lost because they are using the images as the source of their meanings or intuitive flashes. There are also those who may know the traditional meanings, but who will toss them aside if their intuition gives them a stronger message. Whatever one may think about their methods, (and poor Ana Luisa's thread isn't the place for us to discuss these opinions!), these readers definitely do exist!

But to bring this back on topic, I think that all of the answers here about the Fish were a good mix of intuitive and traditional ideas, and I hope they were helpful in getting you to think outside the box to figure out what this card means in your readings -- according to the way YOU want to read them.