Visconti Reproductions (merged threads)

catboxer

Y'all have brought up some extremely thorny and complicated issues about the early, early decks. The most interesting one concerns the question of whether the Visconti-Sforza was the first real Tarot, i.e., whether its trump sequence contained the Devil and the Tower.

Bringing up the fact that those trumps haven't been found in the Brambilla or Cary-Yale packs either doesn't really shed any light on the question, because the Visconti-Sforza is the only one of the three that's anywhere near complete. Sixty-seven cards survive from the 86-card (it's widely thought) Cary-Yale, but only eleven of them are trumps, and three of those -- Faith, Hope, and Charity, are unfamiliar. We don't really know what that deck was, but it was certainly not a standard Tarot. It may have been an experimental prototype. Only two trumps still remain from the Brambilla pack, the Emperor and Wheel of Fortune.

I think probably the Visconti-Sforza did originally have those two missing trumps, because it's like a standard Tarot pack in every other way. The reason I think that is because the earliest Italian woodblock cards we know of (crude, ugly suckers they are) have both. These date from the late 1400's or maybe early 1500's. (See Stu Kaplan's Encyclopedia II, pages 272, 275, and 276.) And I'm also convinced that the working-class, woodblock cards are derivative. You wouldn't expect Joe the Barber to be enough of a neoplatonic adept to design the trump sequence.

I'm also glad Mari has brought in the topics of the Mantegna Deck and the work of Dante Algheri. The Mantegna is not really a Tarot (it was printed on paper) and certainly wasn't for gaming. Its 50-picture sequence, as Mari suggests, was probably used for something more like instruction, maybe instruction in the new Platonism that was so prevalent then. It's hierarchal and ladder-like, just as Dante's universe appears to be. I find that the picture in that sequence that really does it for me is the last and highest one, "Prima Causa." It's right out of Dante, it's pure neoplatonism, and it sheds a lot of light on the culture and philosophy that probably informed the creation of the Tarot trumps.
 

felicityk

New Visconti Gold box set

Does anyone have pictures to share of the new Devil and Tower from the Lo Scarabeo book and deck set? They are different from those in the original Visconti Gold (deck only). I'd really like to see them to compare. Thanks!

Felicity
 

Umbrae

The US Games Systems Visconti-Sforza is dreadful.

The art work is fine, but the card-stock sucks, it’s thin and cheap. The cards will tear by looking at them cross-eyed.

…Cannot recommend them at all.
 

Cerulean

Visconti Reproductions

I'm going to list of the various reproductions some recommendations on

1) Text--what language and completeness

2) Cards--size and color

3) Variations that I have found

4) Links to editions, which include decks that have some or all cards restored, but it has Visconti in the title. I'd like to start with Pierpont Morgan Visconti Sforza

Just fyi, feel free to post what you have. So far, I discovered in terms of card color in the Visconti Sforza, comparing the book by Michael Dummett, the U.S. Games large Visconti Sforza and the Dal Negro edition of the large Visconti Sforza--the Dal Negro edition actually shows the gold and silver differences discussed by Kaplan and Dummett, but their cards look brownish and copper. Could be the printing technology available at the time.

http://wwhttp://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/gilded/w.gambler.ru/sukhty/decks05/d02046/d0204610.jpg

In the link above to the Wheel card, Dame Fortuna has a silver dress, as discussed by Kaplan and Dummett. The dress in the Dummett book is brownish copper, like the backgrounds and the same coloring is in the U.S. Games deck.

Mari H.
 

Ross G Caldwell

Hi Mari,

How would you rank the Visconti-Sforza versions? I had a chance to buy the Il Meneghello, but although the cards were large, the colors were awful.

I have the US Games version (in a box 3000 miles from here), but I'm considering a new purchase - Dal Negro or US Games (again)? For me, it will come down to size (bigger is better - the originals are 175mmx87mm, according to Dummett), or color (brighter/more accurate is better). Which one would you choose between those two?

(I guess the Devil and Tower replacement might be interesting too - how's Dal Negro?)

Ross
 

Cerulean

I believe the Dal Negro version for a historical fan surpasses the U.S. Games version for the following reasons:

1. The size is the same
Both decks have the same dimensions

2. The coloring, front and back, is more accurate.

a. If you are fortunate to have the catalogue with the Brambilla Brera copies of the Visconti cards, the gold, silver and jewel tones are stunning and make one puzzled about the cards we get in the U.S. Games Cary Yale and Visconti decks.
b. The Dal Negro edition is two to three shades lighter, so the blue and silvery dress of perhaps the Bianca Maria model of Justice and Wheel of Fortune are truly silvery and blue, not a muddy, tarnished copper. The backs of the Dal Negro are a bluer burgundy, not the rust burgundy of the U.S. Games version.

3. The text commentary to historians who like to read Italian may be unique.

a. The U.S. Games booklet. While I prefer English booklets, I can get similar or better commentary in Michael Dummett's book and somewhat muddy reproductions as well. I also can look up full explanations in Encyclopedia of the Tarot, Volume II.

b. The commentary by Gabriele Mandel from the Moumenta Longobardica is about 32 pages in the Dal Negro version...a 1974 reproduction of the Visconti in a leatherette box is supposedly from Longobardica and has 32 pages of commentary. I think I made the mistake of buying it (being shipped from Germany) before I picked up the cheaper Dal Negro version. My guess is this is the same text and the quality of the reproductions will be similar for much less.


The serpentine Visconti coat of arms is stamped on the front of the booklet.

I did a google search of Visconti and Lomgobardica and came up with a commentary of the coat of arms of the Visconti.

http://translate.google.com/transla...sconti+longobardi&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
 

felicityk

Ross G Caldwell said:
(I guess the Devil and Tower replacement might be interesting too - how's Dal Negro?)

I made a page showing the Devil and Tower from all available reproductions:

http://home.comcast.net/~felicityk/tarot/visconti/

Personally I like the Meneghello versions the best, but I wasn't aware that the colors in that reproduction were problematic.

Felicity
 

Huck

felicityk said:
I made a page showing the Devil and Tower from all available reproductions:

http://home.comcast.net/~felicityk/tarot/visconti/

Personally I like the Meneghello versions the best, but I wasn't aware that the colors in that reproduction were problematic.

Felicity

That's a nice page, Felicity.

Do you intend to leave it where it is?

I just ask, if it is a stable address, that one can link to it.
 

felicityk

Huck, the address should be stable. I have had the same internet provider for many years, though they changed names from MediaOne to AT&T to Comcast. Unless there is another change of hands it will hopefully remain Comcast for a while!

If you like you can also link to the index page:

http://home.comcast.net/~felicityk/tarot/

From there you can go to my Visconti comparison page, my Marseilles comparison page, and my collection of 22 modern decks.

Felicity
 

Huck

felicityk said:
Huck, the address should be stable. I have had the same internet provider for many years, though they changed names from MediaOne to AT&T to Comcast. Unless there is another change of hands it will hopefully remain Comcast for a while!

If you like you can also link to the index page:

http://home.comcast.net/~felicityk/tarot/

From there you can go to my Visconti comparison page, my Marseilles comparison page, and my collection of 22 modern decks.

Felicity

Yes, I've seen it. We've special interest in the arrangement of the different versions of Devil and Tower, autorbis will finish his article about the Bembo-cards and your special arrangement fits very well into his context.