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Quote:
Originally posted by Val

Wreath - fame (Skull - fame after death)
Hm. Gotta disagree with Patricia there. I can understand the notion--to want fame that will live on after you, but why bother putting that on the cup in the form of a creepy skull? I mean, why put the skull on there to distinguish wanting "Fame" after death as well as during life? Most people who want fame want both, period. Famous during their lifetime and forever after.

I just don't buy it.

Also, the skull is pretty creepy--waiting for someone to take the bait. At least, that's how it looks to me. Like a warning that the pretty laurel wreath is, indeed, an illusion. Or, put it another way, that--among other interpetations--fame isn't all it's cracked up to be.
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Thanks again for the info!

The 'veiled fortune' is interesting. Why is it veiled, and everything else revealed?...

I like the 7 vices vs 7 visions interpretation - it gives all the symbols a meaningful connection... It seems the only 2 symbols that are agreed upon are the jewels (wealth) and the wreath (fame/victory) I guess in reading for the other symbols, your own projections (or the querent's) would be very important then, since there seems to be no 'definitive' meanings.
ie. when I see the castle, I think of stones, stability, old age and possible decay. And for some reason, the head reminds me of a Greek sculpture (?!) and the veiled person, Jesus Christ, even though I am not Christian...
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It's definitely no accident


If you look at Waite's book "The Pictorial Key to the Tarot" originally published in 1910 at the same time as the deck, you will notice that the skull is very visible in the uncolored plates that show the line drawings. I have an original deck and book, which are much cruder (especially compared with the Universal Waite and it's thinner lines and pastel coloring) than the versions available now

And the "classical-traditional" meaning often assigned to the card is, as others have pointed out, illusion.

Waite writes: "Fairy favours, images of reflection, sentiment, imagination, things seen in the glass of contemplation; some attainment in these degrees, but nothing permanent or substantial is suggested."

Whenever this card shows up, I think of illusionary rewards and always wonder what it is that the querent wants or thinks they want. I think of the old saw "better be careful what you ask for, you just might get it" and often say so out loud. The universe has always seemed to me to have a somewhat... peculiar sense of humor. It is often manifested (from my small point of view) in giving us what we think we want rather than what we need.
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Re: It's definitely no accident


Quote:
Originally posted by the hermit
Whenever this card shows up, I think of illusionary rewards and always wonder what it is that the querent wants or thinks they want. I think of the old saw "better be careful what you ask for, you just might get it" and often say so out loud. The universe has always seemed to me to have a somewhat... peculiar sense of humor. It is often manifested (from my small point of view) in giving us what we think we want rather than what we need.
Wow. Good call, Hermit. By the way, I was sent this by Lupo and thought I'd post my answer here as the "reply" won't let me send this long a post back. Also it's a very good point to share. Hope you don't mind Lupo--

Quote:
lupo138 wrote on 08-08-2002 22:17:
With regard to fame and the skull, the following thought might be of interest for you: The ancient Romans believed that a personīs soul would be "alive" as long as it was remembered. So fame after death was pretty important and for many of them a main goal. Fame during a lifetime was not that important. Remember the person that was put near every victorious warlord, who was granted a triumph in Rome. The person had always to say: "Remember, you are just a human" to prevent the warlord from becomin a megalomaniac.
There are two points made here, and though you mix them, they are not one in the same:

1) The allure of fame after death--which I have no problem seeing as an allure. Absolutely people have and still do see fame after death as desirable, and often as far more important than fame in life. The Romans were hardly exclusive in that belief.

2) The reminder that fame, in life, is fleeting--which is the man whispering to the General--the Rennissance carried on this practice with "momento Mori" jewelry and art.

These are two different things. If the General wants fame AFTER DEATH and is lured by this, lusts after it, then, as any marytr will tell you, he should have died in battle rather than returning to be in that victory parade. As he is in the victory parade, he is now REMINDED that this fame is fleeting, illusory, not as good as fame after death. Afterall, if he was dead and his fame living on after, he'd need no reminder

Which does the cup signify? I can buy #2--that it's a LURE to men wanting victory, but once they've got it in hand that ghostly skull appears, whispering them that they're "only human!" and such fame is all ILLUSION. What I DON'T buy is that it could be #1--that it symbolizes the allure of fame after death.

Put it another way, if this image--the skull-cup with the wreath in it--was really intended to mean the allure of "Fame after death", then it is poorly indicated. You don't create something as creepy and chilling as that eerie, ghostly skull unless you want to KILL the positive. A person will reach for that laurel wreath, no question. But they won't reach for that skull cup unless they've a maryter complex. Which, alas, we know far too many people have. But in most of my readings, I'd say that the person I'm reading for would rather reach for those laurels in hope of a victory parade. Yes, they want a big funeral, too, but they want the parade first.

My belief, if they saw that skull on the cup, they'd reject the cup--the skull is too scary, it does not, as you suggest, indicate that "fame after death...pretty important and...a main goal." Besides, how does such a belief work with the card which is about a person going after ILLUSIONS, not something real?

In short, if your point is that the cup reminds the person who grabs for that wreath that they're only human, that victory parades are all illusion, then I'm in total agreement with you. But if your point is that the cup could be the allure of "fame after Death" then no, I still don't buy it. Just IMHO, there.
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Re: Re: It's definitely no accident


Quote:
Originally posted by Thirteen
In short, if your point is that the cup reminds the person who grabs for that wreath that they're only human, that victory parades are all illusion, then I'm in total agreement with you. But if your point is that the cup could be the allure of "fame after Death" then no, I still don't buy it. Just IMHO, there.
I'd have to agree with Thirteen too.
The entire card has definite transitory, illusionary, fleeting imagery for me too.
But thought I might disagree, "fame after Death" is certainly an interesting interpretation.
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dear Thirteen !

it was just athought, that I wanted to tell you, nothing more. But I gained a lot out of your arguments and views, thank you. To hit the point, at least this time: I really agree to all you said and it really helped me a lot and spared me a lot of own work So thank you again.
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Red face Silly me!


Quote:
Originally posted by lupo138
dear Thirteen !

it was just athought, that I wanted to tell you, nothing more. But I gained a lot out of your arguments and views, thank you. To hit the point, at least this time: I really agree to all you said and it really helped me a lot and spared me a lot of own work So thank you again.
Went overboard again didn't I? Sorry, sorry, I'll be good--I was on a roll last night and just couldn't shut m'self up
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I wish we could attach the later thread on this subjet to this one. In the later 7 of cups thread http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...threadid=10354
some of us went seriously bonkers delving into the symbolism, real and imagined. Pollux wrote, the laurel and the skull are the image of Eternity and Time.

Dear Thirteen, please go overboard as much as you wish, I love it.
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Maybe the skull on the Laurel cup simply means that Fame is of the physical. Which is to say, Fame is useless after we've shucked off our bodies following 'death'.
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Wink Rota, I see it in a completely opposite way! *LOL*


Fame to me represents the award for a soul who gains eternal life through their hard work and achievements - their name shall be remembered way after their death. Fame is what goes beyond the physical, marking our names on the tiles of history (not Sunset Boulevard, but similar *LOL*).
Probably my way to see it is just an effect of the classical anachronistic influences around here - yet that's why we love Tarot: so many things to look at and so many different ways to interpret them!!!
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