Does anyone use Tarot as a card game?

philebus

I'm glad to hear that ottocento is still being played. I like to think that the fact importers stock the cards suggests that it is getting noticed outside of Italy as well.

I wouldn't compare it to bridge as some have, it is played in partnerships like bridge but it is a much better game and not at all as complicated as some people say. Bridge is bogged down by that awful bidding system that leaves playing the hand a formality - not my idea of social or fun. Ottocento is the king of card games, being smart, sophisticated, and social.

I gathered from Michael Dummett's book that the Sicilian tarocchi is just about gone - though I think are are at least two manufacturers making the cards. It is a shame when good games go, I would hope that getting people to discover them outside of their home countries, they might be around a little longer.

Part of the problem is that the only books that list the games are either rare and/or very expensive, so very few of the people who might have been interested ever hear that the games exist.

It is nice to see an interest in the games from people who are otherwise more interested in the occult tarot - my fellow card players, I'm sorry to say, are often a little less accomodating to other uses of the cards than you are of theirs. I've read some very harsh words by some of them - talking of the 'true' use of tarot cards. An odd idea, as it is a little like saying that the 'true' use of the word "nice" is to call someone a simpleton (which is how the word used to be used) and that using it as a compliment now, is somehow incorrect. Athough I don't share many of the beliefs of members here, I personally don't see why both uses can't be accomodated, there needn't be conflict at all. It is a wonderful pack of cards with a very rich history, I wouldn't want to ignore any part of it.
 

frelkins

The Italian website you want is: http://www.tarocchinobolognese.it/saluto.php

This is the "school" in Bologna where they teach and play ottocento. It's mostly sort of a gentleman's club, I guess. They take the gambling very seriously, but in true Italian fashion, they also view it culturally.

I understand how frustrating it can be for the historians, serious playing card collectors, and anthropologists to deal with some occultists who insist on disproven foolishness about the origin of the cards.

But here on AT we largely accept the scholarship, but keep an open mind as to the fascinating breadth and use of tarot in Western culture in all forms. :)
 

le pendu

philebus said:
Well, I'm a little new here, having joined from an interest in collecting cards. However, as a game player I did a little searching around and found this thread. As it happens, I've started work on a short book of tarot games with the aim of presenting them in a way that will be accessible to all.

I've no idea if there is a market for this kind of thing and the project only began to help get my Sister and her family get started. However, I'm nearing the stage of at least looking for an interested agent/publisher. If I'm not able to get it published, then I'll at least post it on lulu.com for anyone who is interested.

It is more work that I thought to write them in a form that assumes no prior knowledge - and I am commiting some sins by standardising some many of the terms used in various countries.

I don't have access to Michael Dummett's latest collections (the cost is a too little high for me just now - about £90 each volume) but I do have notes made over the years of play and from the internet, and of course, my trusty copy of The Game Of Tarot. So far the list of included games is:

The Games: Part I

Scarto
Four Handed Tarocchi
Mitigati
Droggn
Jeu de Tarot
Grosstarok

The Games: Part II

Troccas
Troggu

The Games: Part III

Tapp-tarock
Zwanzigrufen (40 card version)
Konigrufen
Cego
Hungarian
Slovenian
Romanian (because I've a friend from the Ukrain)
Czechoslovakian Taroky (because it is played in Texas!)

The Games: Part IV

Sicilian Tarocchi
The Tarocco Bolognese
- Ottocento
- Terziglio
- Millone
- Mattazza
Minchiate
Bavarian Tarock

It has been metioned that most tarot games are played using French suited cards with fairly arbitrary images on the trumps. The old Italian designs are still used in Italy and Sicily - though they have now been made double ended for ease in game play. Parts of Switzerland use the Swiss 1JJ pack. I know that the cards for central and Eastern European games (usual reduced to 54 cards) are available in the States from www.tarock.net but if you want the Italian designs, then I think you'll have to shop at one of the European stores: www.alidastore.com or www.playingcardsales.co.uk and look for Tarocco Siciliano, Tarocco Bolognese, and Tarocco Peidmontese.

I'll take a guess at the book mentioned to contain Scarto. It is probably David Parlett's Penguin Encylopedia of Card Games - sadly out of print for a few years now. It is one of the best books of card games I've ever found and worth hunting down.

I'd be very interested in a copy. If you go the Lulu route please let us know, I'd love to learn.

PS. Welcome to Aeclectic!
 

philebus

Thanks for the welcome. This seems like a friendly place, whatever folks interest in the cards.

I'll be sure to post, whatever happens with the book.

Once I've got that sorted I'll be working on some modules for the Vassal Game Engine, so folk can set up games over the internet. There is one module there already for the 78 card games - but it would be nice to put some other pack structures on there.

If anyone wants to set up some games, the software is free, I think its an open source project. Using java, it will work on all platforms, which is a plus.

http://www.vassalengine.org

I haven't had the chance to try it out myself yet - I'll certainly be happy to take part in any community games if there's interest.
 

northsea

I play the Hoyle online tarot game, but can always count on Roswell the alien to go on a tear and do the come from behind victory thing, so I think Hoyle rigged the game, for sure. It's kind of shortsighted of Hoyle to rig their games though since they're less fun to play that way. Oh well.
 

philebus

Shame about Hoyle. I've not downloaded any of the other Tarot software. I did download one a little while ago but it got flagged as having a virus, so I've been cautious since.

Vassal can't be rigged though - but that's because it doesn't play a side for you, it doesn't enforce any rules either. Basically, its like having a virtual pack of cards and players deal and play them as they wish, according to the game they want to play. The existing module has a 78 card French suited pack and will seat up to eight players. I can't think of any 8 player games for 78 cards mind but if you like the French game, then it should be fine.
 

Sar

I use to play poker with tarot.
 

philebus

I just received an odd little ebay find. It's a 1975 attempt by Paitnik to introduce tarock to the UK. The box contains a 54 card pack with their usual baroque designs, four trays to put your money in and a little book giving the rules to a few games:

Scarecrow (which I've only heard of as Straw Man)
Tappen (which I think is usually Tapp-Tarock these days)
Point-Tarock (this is quite a complex game - I had finnished writting it up for my work)
Konig-rufen (just plain classic)
Zwanzigrufen (not the best but a nice introduction)

After a quick glance through, some of the scoring seems to be different to my references but there are also some unexpected terms. The 21 is called the Moon (not entirely unexpected I guess), and they describe announcements as bids which could be confusing. It also has yet another 'history' of the cards, saying that the games were derrived from Trappola - which, according to Michael Dummett is a common mistake made in Germany and Austria.

To my knowledge, this was one of two attempts at introducing tarot games into Britain in that year. Waddingtons also imported and sold a 78 card French pack with the rules for the French game. However, they sold it as being "Tarock - the International Card Game". This is the only time I've heard of the French game being called tarock and I can only assume that it was to distance them from Tarot which was still mostly thought of as occult. Of course, Waddingtons also helped popularize the occult tarot here in the '70s - being, I think, the first importer of the Swiss 1JJ to the UK.
 

DianeOD

Another book

Perhaps I missed it, but did anyone mention Michael Dummett's earlier book, published in 1980 by Duckworth Press and called "Twelve Tarot Games"?
(I think that's right.. hang on while I check... yep, that's right.)

I picked up my copy at a local New Age shop - but that was a while ago.

It might still be around - maybe through abebooks? Should be much less expensive than the current 2 vols.