rainwolf
From my limited knowledge of A.C., I'm not sure if he actually was...I've heard that before, but I doubted it. It seems like he just wanted to scare people for fun. It only held me back in the beginning. Once you get the deck its great.
Aleister Crowley (Thoth deck)
Cerulean
You might search recent discussions of the Thoth deck, here's one
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=34422&highlight=thoth+satanist
And my thinking is that you will find a similiar range of answers, pro or con, as it seems to be a common question if Alexander Crowley reputation influences others to using a deck that also has his ideas in the art.
While people have different opinions, I'd enjoy hearing yours. Sansa, how are your experiences with the Crowley deck? Mine are that it has beautiful art as well as crystalline colors. Many modern decks that I enjoy seem to have drawn some inspiration in one form or another from the descriptions and ideas presented in this deck. Some include the Haindl, Via, Ananda, Roots of Asia--perhaps in the way the descriptions are written or the depth of exploration.
What do you think of the Thoth forum, once you had a chance to explore?
Best regards,
Cerulean
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=34422&highlight=thoth+satanist
And my thinking is that you will find a similiar range of answers, pro or con, as it seems to be a common question if Alexander Crowley reputation influences others to using a deck that also has his ideas in the art.
While people have different opinions, I'd enjoy hearing yours. Sansa, how are your experiences with the Crowley deck? Mine are that it has beautiful art as well as crystalline colors. Many modern decks that I enjoy seem to have drawn some inspiration in one form or another from the descriptions and ideas presented in this deck. Some include the Haindl, Via, Ananda, Roots of Asia--perhaps in the way the descriptions are written or the depth of exploration.
What do you think of the Thoth forum, once you had a chance to explore?
Best regards,
Cerulean
thinbuddha
sansa said:
Well, his reputation (what little I knew about him) made me shy away from the deck for a long time. That and the fact that the pips don't have narrative illustrations. It's not that I'm afraid of going to hell or getting caught up in something "evil"- it was more that I have a somewhat derisive attitude about satanism. I mean- I don't even believe in the god that satanists are rebelling against, so in my eyes satanism is sort of childish and laughable.... so I avoided the Thoth deck because of Crowley.
Once I got the deck, I realized that I was just depriving myself. You know that feeling that you get when you have a really good piece of music. I mean really good. Your favorite album- probably ever. You have this feeling that every day, you want to go buy another album that will be as good. But you can't, because it is Abbey Road, Dark Side of the Moon and OK Computer all rolled into one. That's the feeling I have for this deck right now. It has spoiled me for other decks. Nothing else stands up, at the moment.
And yes, I still have a decidedly derisive attitude towards satansist. But I also have a decidedly derisive attitude towards christians. I don't feel like this deck requires even a skeptic's belief in satan (or any other diety- including thoth) to get A LOT out of it.
-tb
Grigori
sansa said:
The idea that Crowley was a satanist is rediculous. He wanted to overthrow Christianity, and replace it with his new religion based on the individual.(Thelema, the religion for the new aeon according to Crowley) As he was not a Christian, people accusing him of worshipping a Christian deity (or anti-diety) is laughable. I imagine Crowley had similar ideas about Satanisn to thinbuddha actually. His use of Christian concepts to illustrate his points and shock the masses in the Christian society he lived in is an indication of that, and not satanism.
Thats not to say of course that he didn't do magical work in which demons played a role. Of course he did. As did all his peers, and the creators of many of the other decks (I notice you have on of those decks in your possession sansa
). The difference is not in the activites, but merely the reputation. The Thoth is one of the most beautiful and useable decks available. It is a favorite of mine, and my tarot experience is richer for having studied it, and some of Crowleys work. He was an odd man, and not one you'd want near your sister, but he was not a satanist.
Lillie
sansa said:
Personally, I don't give a damn.
However, from what I know of him, he wasn't a Satanist.
He was brought up in a strict Christian family, against which he rebelled.
It is from this early rebellion that we get stuff like calling himself 'the beast 666'.
However, it seems that this was an early, 'knee jerk' reaction to his upbringing.
This lead him into a study of occultism, which became his lifes work.
He evoked many pagan and classical gods and during his life (some of which may be considered to have similarities with satan), and he remained 'anti christian to the end of his long life. However, the worship of Satan, and the deliberate distortion of Christian rites (like the black mass) seems to be something that either he only did when young, or never did at all.
Perhaps he felt as I do, that the worship/belief in the christian devil must actually pre-suppose a belief in the christian god.
There is a massive difference between occultism and satanism. I think, perhaps, that you are confused as to that difference.
Parzival
Aleister Crowley (Thoth Deck)
Crowley was a metaphysical Kabbalist and I Ching-ist -- not a conjuring satanist. Mix in Magic and Alchemy and the Grail and Rabelais ( leave out the crude humor if you want) and you get at his approach to truth -- eclectic and futuristic. That's why Harris' artistic results with the Thoth Tarot are so symbolically stimulating. That's why Angeles Arrien could write a handbook based on the symbolic richness of the deck. Crowley's wild, breaking-the-boundaries eccentric, esoteric, eclectic combinations of Egypt and Mobius strip and Alchemic Marriage and the three Gunas and uterus and phallus and Yin and Yang and elephant and Hierophant . Maybe his Magic was his unafraid synthesis of compartmentalized symbolic systems.
Crowley was a metaphysical Kabbalist and I Ching-ist -- not a conjuring satanist. Mix in Magic and Alchemy and the Grail and Rabelais ( leave out the crude humor if you want) and you get at his approach to truth -- eclectic and futuristic. That's why Harris' artistic results with the Thoth Tarot are so symbolically stimulating. That's why Angeles Arrien could write a handbook based on the symbolic richness of the deck. Crowley's wild, breaking-the-boundaries eccentric, esoteric, eclectic combinations of Egypt and Mobius strip and Alchemic Marriage and the three Gunas and uterus and phallus and Yin and Yang and elephant and Hierophant . Maybe his Magic was his unafraid synthesis of compartmentalized symbolic systems.
raeanne
Hi all,
I think Alister Crowley was the "shock jock" of his day; kind of like Howard Stern. He kept pushing the envelope. I really don't understand why some people are afraid of his deck. Even if he was a satanist, what could he possible have done to a deck that I bought long after he was dead? Even if there are evil satanic symbolism in the deck, that doesn't mean I have to acknowledge it as such. Does using a deck done by a Christian or with Christian symbolism make me a Christian? Nope. How about a deck done by a pagan? If I use that deck will I somehow be turned into a pagan? No. Look at the art. If you like it, use it. If you don't like the art, don't use it. That's just my opinion but I think a lot of people are giving Alister way too much credit. He was a very intelligent man but he was just another human being.
I think Alister Crowley was the "shock jock" of his day; kind of like Howard Stern. He kept pushing the envelope. I really don't understand why some people are afraid of his deck. Even if he was a satanist, what could he possible have done to a deck that I bought long after he was dead? Even if there are evil satanic symbolism in the deck, that doesn't mean I have to acknowledge it as such. Does using a deck done by a Christian or with Christian symbolism make me a Christian? Nope. How about a deck done by a pagan? If I use that deck will I somehow be turned into a pagan? No. Look at the art. If you like it, use it. If you don't like the art, don't use it. That's just my opinion but I think a lot of people are giving Alister way too much credit. He was a very intelligent man but he was just another human being.
Nocturnal Lure
First of all it is important to realize that Satanism has nothing to do with the cloven hooved incarnation of evil (Satan means oposer). Even though Satanists are actively against Christianity, doesn't make them pro evil, actually they don't believe in any deity.
Satansts are atheists who place themselves above everything else, next to that they love to shock and piss off established religions.
Aleister Crowly has been involved in numerous dubious goings on, acusations of murder and rape and all sorts of mystery have found their way to the path of Aleister, but when you regard the character and the urban legends around him in the perspective of his time in hostory it isn't all that weird.
Aleister and his Golden Dawn followers were obsesively mysterious and controversial by choice and they loved the attention and controversy that it brought about.
Now personally Aleister is not one of my favorite characters, I think of him as a poser, but he has brought some intersting things into this world, amongst which, the Toth Tarot... and for that he gets my respect.
Satansts are atheists who place themselves above everything else, next to that they love to shock and piss off established religions.
Aleister Crowly has been involved in numerous dubious goings on, acusations of murder and rape and all sorts of mystery have found their way to the path of Aleister, but when you regard the character and the urban legends around him in the perspective of his time in hostory it isn't all that weird.
Aleister and his Golden Dawn followers were obsesively mysterious and controversial by choice and they loved the attention and controversy that it brought about.
Now personally Aleister is not one of my favorite characters, I think of him as a poser, but he has brought some intersting things into this world, amongst which, the Toth Tarot... and for that he gets my respect.
Sophie
Why don't you give the deck & the intricate & splendidly written book Aleister Crowley wrote about the Tarot of Thoth a try and decide for yourself?
Personally I think he was a provocateur who wanted to challenge the Victorian morality & religiosity he was born into (he was born in 1875). If you read the French surrealists, or see a surrealist film of the 1920s & 1930s, you won't see much different in tone than what you can read in Crowley. His was a phenomenal intellect & part of it was turned to destroy the Victorian leviathan of British establishment & its underlying morality. Hence "the Beast" & other such epithets. He was part of a much wider movement of people who resented the chains of Victorianism and attacked them any way they could.
(Of course his contribution is also very creative - but I am dealing with the "satanism" accusation).
Personally I think he was a provocateur who wanted to challenge the Victorian morality & religiosity he was born into (he was born in 1875). If you read the French surrealists, or see a surrealist film of the 1920s & 1930s, you won't see much different in tone than what you can read in Crowley. His was a phenomenal intellect & part of it was turned to destroy the Victorian leviathan of British establishment & its underlying morality. Hence "the Beast" & other such epithets. He was part of a much wider movement of people who resented the chains of Victorianism and attacked them any way they could.
(Of course his contribution is also very creative - but I am dealing with the "satanism" accusation).
ShekinahMoon
Love the deck
I have been studying with this deck for about three weeks and I love it. I'm a woman who loves symbols and this deck is full of them AND they have meaning. The deck works on two levels. It is a deck for inner development using the Tree of Life and symbols from different mythologies as well as a deck for divination. This deck and the accompanying book by Crowley has me learning more about Crowley and looking at him with a new set of thoughts.
I have been studying with this deck for about three weeks and I love it. I'm a woman who loves symbols and this deck is full of them AND they have meaning. The deck works on two levels. It is a deck for inner development using the Tree of Life and symbols from different mythologies as well as a deck for divination. This deck and the accompanying book by Crowley has me learning more about Crowley and looking at him with a new set of thoughts.
