Thoth Prince of Cups

rachelcat

I didn't see a thread for this guy, so here goes!

Prince of Cups

Air of Water
Mostly fixed water = Scorpio

The prince is bluish green with a helmet with an eagle on top. He stares into the cup that he holds that has a snake rising from within it. In his other hand he holds a large lotus down toward the water. He rides in a light blue/purple chariot that is swirly like a shell that is drawn by an beautifully stylized eagle close to the surface of the water into which rain is falling. In the back are “wings” that are really white curly clouds.

The eagle and snake are symbols of Scorpio. The scorpion is not in evidence. Crowley implies that the scorpion is under the water of the lake.

Air of water is clouds, water vapor. Crowley also says “elasticity, volatility, hydrostatic equilibrium, catalytic faculty, and energy of steam.” Just conversed with my son about what hydrostatic equilibrium means, and we decided that it refers to the upward pressure and expansiveness of gases. As does, of course, the energy of steam. Volatility has the alchemical meaning of something transforming from matter to spirit. Crowley mentioned catalytic function of water for another of the court cards—Princess of Cups maybe? I find that interesting. Many chemical reactions take place in water. The water (or liquid) is necessary as a place for the transformation to take place.

What would all that mean for the Prince of Cups? He is someone who allows spiritual transformation to take place. He is comfortable with and facilitates spiritual expansion.

The last time I did a Thoth study, I was most struck with the description of the stagnant lake, and that much is going on under the surface. Even though it is stagnant, the life-giving rain is falling into it. Stagnation/putrefaction is necessary to create new life. Just add water!

The rest of Crowley’s description is pretty negative, all about the secrecy, passionate intensity, self-centered deceptiveness, and “overweening ambition” of the Scorpio character.

He also says the transition from Libra to Scorpio has enormous energy and weight. Hmm, I wonder why? Banzhaf says it’s “when the outer nature dies to form humus beneath the earth for the new year.” This agrees closely with the putrefaction in the lake combining with the rain to prepare for new life. Maybe that’s why this time of year is so powerful: at Halloween/Samhain, it’s obvious all around one that death is necessary and that it will lead to new life! Sacrifice for the greater good. Or a deep connection between the dead and the living. That’s a lot of meaning for one little court card! The Prince of Cups is turning into a mini Hanged Man. But that works too with its connection to the Grail. The death of Christ brings life to others.

Crowley gives us hexagram 61, Sincerity, Wind over Lake. In the I Ching, Taoism, and Confucianism, sincerity is one of the most important virtues, therefore, this is one of the most auspicious hexagrams. All the lines are about good fortune except the last, which, not surprisingly, warns against insincerity. This is perhaps a warning for those Scorpios of “subtlety, secret violence, and craft.”

In a reading: The Prince of Cups is a person in touch with the truth of spirituality, that it often requires sacrifice, and that it’s not always pretty. He is comfortable with transition and transformation. He may keep this inner knowledge to himself, and people might be uncomfortable with what appears to be his secrecy and of passionate intensity.
 

Aeric

I've been studying this card because it's the court decan I fall under. I was surprised at Crowley's description of this court:

"The moral characteristics of the person pictured in this card are subtlety, secret violence, and craft. He is intensely secret, an artist in all his ways. On the surface he appears calm and imperturbie, but this is a mask of the most intense passion. He is on the surface susceptible to external influences, but he accepts them only to transmute them to the advantage of his secret designs. He is thus completely without conscience in the ordinary sense of the word, and is therefore usually distrusted by his neighbours. They feel they do not, and can never, understand him. Thus he inspires unreasonable fear. He is in fact perfectly ruthless. He cares intensely for power, wisdom, and his own aims. He feels no responsibility to others, and although his abilities are so immense, he cannot be relied upon to work in harness."

Wow. Was Crowley jilted by a Cup Prince lover in his lifetime? Was he jealous of artistic success? He has nothing but accusatory comments of deception, selfishness, and ruthlessness. Such people are beyond the understanding of normal people because they cloak themselves in enigma for their own ambitions. He speaks nothing of positives that might result, like the desire to beautify the world through art, or to present alternate perspectives for diversity.

Or could this be strictly that since the Prince is a young king affected by the supremely feminine element of Water, that to Crowley he's a distastefully effeminate person? The same overwhelming negativity isn't given to the Knight of Cups, so I have to wonder: just what was up Aleister's butt about this guy?
 

Abrac

This isn't intended to hijack the thread. I'm interested only in how it might relate back to Crowley's Prince.

Book T says:

"He holds in one hand a lotus, and in the other a cup, charged with the sigil of his scale."

I can see a small symbol on the cup but can't make it out. Anyone know what it is? And what is meant by scale?

Golden Dawn Prince
 

Abrac

Thanks Aeric, makes sense now.

I don't know what that is on the GD cup, but it doesn't look like any of those sigils, and there's definitely nothing on Crowley's cup. I'll have to look into it some more.
 

Always Wondering

I've been studying this card because it's the court decan I fall under. I was surprised at Crowley's description of this court:

"The moral characteristics of the person pictured in this card are subtlety, secret violence, and craft. He is intensely secret, an artist in all his ways. On the surface he appears calm and imperturbie, but this is a mask of the most intense passion. He is on the surface susceptible to external influences, but he accepts them only to transmute them to the advantage of his secret designs. He is thus completely without conscience in the ordinary sense of the word, and is therefore usually distrusted by his neighbours. They feel they do not, and can never, understand him. Thus he inspires unreasonable fear. He is in fact perfectly ruthless. He cares intensely for power, wisdom, and his own aims. He feels no responsibility to others, and although his abilities are so immense, he cannot be relied upon to work in harness."

Wow. Was Crowley jilted by a Cup Prince lover in his lifetime? Was he jealous of artistic success? He has nothing but accusatory comments of deception, selfishness, and ruthlessness. Such people are beyond the understanding of normal people because they cloak themselves in enigma for their own ambitions. He speaks nothing of positives that might result, like the desire to beautify the world through art, or to present alternate perspectives for diversity.

Or could this be strictly that since the Prince is a young king affected by the supremely feminine element of Water, that to Crowley he's a distastefully effeminate person? The same overwhelming negativity isn't given to the Knight of Cups, so I have to wonder: just what was up Aleister's butt about this guy?

Don't overlook this.

"In the Yi King, the airy part of Water is represented by the 6ist hexagram, Kung Fu~. This is one of the most important figures in the Yi: it "moves even pigs and fish, and leads to great good fortune''. Its dignities and correspondences are manifold and great; for it is also a "big Li", the trigram of Sol formed by doubling the lines. By shape it suggests a boat, but also the geomantic figure of Carcer, Saturn in Capricornus. This card is in consequence one of great power; Libra going over into Scorpio is of tremendous, active, critical energy and weight. To ~, such people good will, sincerity, and right mating are the essentials of success; their danger is overweening ambition."

There is no middle ground with the Prince. He is all highs and lows. I am away from most of my books right now but I believe DuQuette explains Crowley's attitude with this prince in Understanding Crowley's Thoth Tarot.
Someone should correct me if I'm wrong.

AW
 

WolfyJames

Sounds like a scorpio to me, I think the Prince of Cups is a scorpio for 2/3 for the card, no? My brother is a scorpio and he's like that. He pretty much ruined our relationship with his cruelty to me, he probably thought I'd be devastated and cry, but I'm a fighter and send back what people send me. When people are nice I'm nice too, but when people are mean I'm mean too. So we pretty much spent our time fighting and arguing, I was mean to him too and would annoy him to make him bolt. He started it.

Personally I think he was envious because I was not over-emotional like him, he was wimpy and scared of everything while I was fearless. Dad favored me to him because of that.

Not much good is said about my card too, the Prince of Swords. At least one can say Crowley did not glorify the Cups and did not put all the bad stuff on the Swords, unlike others who view Cups people like saints and Swords people like cruel sociopath.
 

Abrac

I don't think that's anything on the cup. I got my actual cards out and looked and it's just light reflecting off the cup. Aeric you're right, apparently the sigils weren't included.
 

Zephyros

I agree that it sounds bad, but when taking the card as a whole and taking apart what Crowley said about it, we can begin to see why he said the things he said.

"The moral characteristics of the person pictured in this card are subtlety, secret violence, and craft. He is intensely secret, an artist in all his ways. On the surface he appears calm and imperturbable, but this is a mask of the most intense passion.

Although all Cups cards have the serenity of water in them, they still have an element of internal violence in them, as it is Binah/Briah that acts as incubator for the tumultuous energy of Atziluth. Water Courts are like icebergs, their real limitless depths are beneath the surface, and they ain't always pretty.

He is on the surface susceptible to external influences, but he accepts them only to transmute them to the advantage of his secret designs.

All Princes are on chariots, giving a hint of their connection with the Chariot, which comes from their both going forth bearing the force of the Father and the vessel of the Mother (Chochma and Binah). Both have force, energy and drive, to which all else is subservient. The Chariot's power comes from the vessel he's carrying, and the Prince is more watery than that, and together with his innate airy influence, his own vessel is constantly bubbling, he's ten paces ahead of everyone else.

He is thus completely without conscience in the ordinary sense of the word, and is therefore usually distrusted by his neighbours. They feel they do not, and can never, understand him. Thus he inspires unreasonable fear. He is in fact perfectly ruthless. He cares intensely for power, wisdom, and his own aims. He feels no responsibility to others, and although his abilities are so immense, he cannot be relied upon to work in harness."

With great power comes great responsibility, but the Prince may not always have enough of a sense for it. Having an innate ability to turn imagination into reality may make him feel superior to others, who can't see his depths or the ends of his plans. The specifics of his ethics depend upon his decans:

Jupiter in Libra: Perhaps the best influence for this prince, perhaps bringing out the better qualities of art and beauty mentioned previously. While thisinfluence does not fully negate the Prince's impetuousness, it does direct towards constructive ends, and seems to inform him of the consequences of his actions.

Mars in Scorpio: This exemplifies the more destructive elements of this Prince. Mars feels right at home in Scorpio, and brings out that sign's obsession with end results and decisive endings. In this decan, I can well believe the bad things Crowley says of this Prince. Water loses its serene mindset and becomes hostile, and so there is more than a little deviousness in this Prince, he is manipulative and calculating, always with his mind on the result, which healways tries to turn to his advantage. Now, this does not mean he is an unpleasant person, he can direct those same qualities toward being friendly and amiable (such as anticipating his friends' needs), this is simply a description of how his mind works.

Sun in Scorpio: While the Sun tends to temper this decan with somewhat less of an obsession with Death, in my opinion the biggest difference is that he will lack the subtelty of Mars in Scorpio. All is open to see, and with it perhaps an element of control is missing.
 

ravenest

You see guys .... Clos is seeing the 'person' as a representation ( or an ease of classification) of the energy Crowley was describing ... the 'persona' of a court.... a psychological process.

That is not the same as a 'person who is a Scorpio'.... even if there was any such thing .... you are not just your Sun sign.

Aside from that common mistake, we have to realise this is how Crowley wrote (and often 'apologised' or at least tried to make it clear why he wrote the way he did - something like ; I am assuming you know about what I write, but want to hear it in a new or different slant... something like that.)

Notice how the description of prince of cups character builds up ... like the old boy got 'on a roll'.

Maybe that guy that he busted for selling fake charters that he went to meet and shared a hotel with ... who Crowley, in abject confusion ( a rare event for him, considering his forays into 'human nature') postulated the fact that although he stole Crowley's stuff (understandable) why on earth did he also steal Crowley's silk underwear from his hotel draw :confused: ... was a Scorpio :laugh:


Also compare with the description of the Prince of Wands ... what an arse ! Of course it all appears good and noble at the end ..... I wonder if that has anything to do with the persona of that card coinciding with Crowleys natal ascendant ? :laugh:

You're already expected to know ... and be 'in' on any 'jokes' exaggerations and prejudices .... which may be hard at times ... especially when he runs away with himself.

Compared to what could be written about these cards , it seems the the BOT is the bare minimum at times ... at other times , it seems to assume one knows everything so highlights some obscure point about something (and then can get carried away with that) ... that often is given central focus ... just because its in the book, but it might not be that relevant, and can obscure the general info.