Reversals

Barleywine

No, the question was about what she was looking for in a relationship. The answer was the reversed Tower. She didn't like seeing the Tower, which is understandable. It's a scary type of card. But if the Tower represents breaking down old structures, isn't one of it's possible reversed meanings the *opposite* of breakdown, e.g., stability? The more meaningful question is why is the answer posed in this way? If the answer to what you're looking for in a relationship was really stability, is a reversed Tower really what you would expect to see? I doubt it. It likely indicates deep feelings of instability and wanting NOT to feel that way--something along those lines. Otherwise, how would you interpret a reversed Tower in answer to that question? Would you think the person was likely to achieve a stable relationship? The reversal was very eye opening.

I don't think reversal can eliminate the inevitability that a trump card implies (my take on them is that you can neither avoid not fully deflect their impact, so your only choice is to adapt or adjust as creatively as possible). With the Tower rx I sometimes see it as a slow-motion collapse that gives time to maneuver and compensate, perhaps blunting some of the sting; other times it suggests a slow fall that could result in more of a "soft landing" (the people look like they will land on their feet after all). Reversal could provide a bit of emotional distance from the immediacy of the event and less of a knee-jerk response.
 

Sztar

I think, as tarot readers, we must be committed to honesty. That's why I think it is so important just to read the cards and not try to give advice. Let the cards speak their truth and if the Client doesn't want to face it, don't get sucked into their psychological problems. It is a good idea to have a list of counselors handy to recommend for that. The important thing is to be aware that such a need exists.

I would like to also point out here that the card upright says the same thing.....a big change needs to happen...a major transformation in her ego has to take place, and she would have had to face that because the cards said it, not you. This is why I like to read the cards upright. It seems to approach the issue more directly....from a positive perspective rather than a negative one. As I see reversals, they lead to a lot of speculation about the meaning of the card that really confuses the issue.

Sorry but we'll just have to agree to disagree. The cards very clearly said this. I didn't have to decide which upright meaning to apply. An upright card in this situation could have meant that she was seeking to break out of old patterns of relationship behavior or it could have meant what I said. With a reversed card, it means being stuck--trapped in the Tower. Completely different meaning, and I don't have to make arbitrary assumptions.

When I posted this thread, i expected people to disagree with me. I expected to hear that you don't *have* to read reversals to master tarot. What I did not expect to hear was that you should *never* read them and that tarot cards should only be read face up or you risk misinterpretation. I confess, i find this a very strange position. I understand that reversals are difficult though. After two years I'm still getting the hang of them, but my readings are incredibly more accurate.

Also, I've gotten over the fear that many have of seeing upside down cards. I think it's mostly just a psychological reaction because often people want the cards to validate rosy messages and are holding their breath looking for good cards. Reality is vastly more complicated than that, and we would do well to remember that and confront it head on.

What I mainly got out of that reading was the resolve to avoid reading for desperate people seeking positive affirmations about romance. People like that don't want the truth and are setting themselves up for rejection and heartbreak. Validating their desire doesn't help them gain any clarity, which is the primary use of tarot IMO. (I know this is somewhat off topic but the other cards indicated that the man was ambivalent toward her. There was no way to read much positive into it. Best to encourage her to move on before getting hurt.)
 

Sztar

I don't think reversal can eliminate the inevitability that a trump card implies (my take on them is that you can neither avoid not fully deflect their impact, so your only choice is to adapt or adjust as creatively as possible). With the Tower rx I sometimes see it as a slow-motion collapse that gives time to maneuver and compensate, perhaps blunting some of the sting; other times it suggests a slow fall that could result in more of a "soft landing" (the people look like they will land on their feet after all). Reversal could provide a bit of emotional distance from the immediacy of the event and less of a knee-jerk response.

I agree. I would say that to gain the stability she's seeking, she'll need to break out of old patterns of behavior.

Otherwise, how would you directly interpret the following:

Q: What is So & So looking for in a relationship?
A: Tower (rx)

(Also, for context, I only asked this question as a means of assessing compatibility. The other cards related to the man's feelings toward her and what he was looking for in a relationship indicated ambivalence toward her and maybe even something slightly more sinister with respect to his relationship goals--possibly manipulation.)
 

Sztar

My main takeaway from the specific Tower (rx) example is that we're generally all seeing the same message but disagreeing over how we get there. I think the bottom line is that overcoming fear of the unknown is necessary for growth. Once you've overcome that fear, is it *necessary* to adopt reversals into your practice? No, probably not. But for some of us, it provides an easier means of getting to the heart of a matter, and for me personally, it provides so much more depth.

For anyone who is nervous about reversals and feels this may be blocking their learning, I encourage you to get a copy of Mary Greer's book on reversals and do the "Hidden Influences" spread. This was an amazing and eye opening experience and got me over a huge hurdle. Two years later, I've literally watched the events unfold from that spread, and I still go back and look at it every now and then (I record all of my readings in a journal so I can review later). Truly incredible and highly recommended.
 

Barleywine

Q: What is So & So looking for in a relationship?
A: Tower (rx)

To be treated with consideration and not pushed around or dominated. I think it suggests a certain wariness about the possibility of that happening.
 

Sztar

To be treated with consideration and not pushed around or dominated. I think it suggests a certain wariness about the possibility of that happening.

Interesting. I don't get the first part of your interpretation. I would not interpret the Tower as wanting to be treated with respect. I would interpret it (upright) as wanting to break out of an old relationship pattern (or out of a specific relationship if that had been the issue), but with a reversal, I would think the person would be more likely to repeat old patterns and will *not* break out of the Tower--they are trapped in an old cycle maybe. I think that was my original interpretation, and they said (paraphrase) "No, no, I'm looking for stability--not the Tower." In other words, they kind of missed the point of what I was saying, but it made me think that the card was even more accurate in what it was saying. The thing she said she wanted was generally implied in the reversal, but what was even more apparent was that she was unlikely to get it. Same thing... trapped in an old cycle... unable or unwilling to break free from the Tower...

Anyways I still think we're reaching the same conclusions. The card doesn't suggest that the thing you want and the thing you will get are in alignment. Suggests it's a bad match.
 

Ruby Jewel

Sorry but we'll just have to agree to disagree. The cards very clearly said this. I didn't have to decide which upright meaning to apply. An upright card in this situation could have meant that she was seeking to break out of old patterns of relationship behavior or it could have meant what I said. With a reversed card, it means being stuck--trapped in the Tower. Completely different meaning, and I don't have to make arbitrary assumptions.

When I posted this thread, i expected people to disagree with me. I expected to hear that you don't *have* to read reversals to master tarot. What I did not expect to hear was that you should *never* read them and that tarot cards should only be read face up or you risk misinterpretation. I confess, i find this a very strange position. I understand that reversals are difficult though. After two years I'm still getting the hang of them, but my readings are incredibly more accurate.

Also, I've gotten over the fear that many have of seeing upside down cards. I think it's mostly just a psychological reaction because often people want the cards to validate rosy messages and are holding their breath looking for good cards. Reality is vastly more complicated than that, and we would do well to remember that and confront it head on.

What I mainly got out of that reading was the resolve to avoid reading for desperate people seeking positive affirmations about romance. People like that don't want the truth and are setting themselves up for rejection and heartbreak. Validating their desire doesn't help them gain any clarity, which is the primary use of tarot IMO. (I know this is somewhat off topic but the other cards indicated that the man was ambivalent toward her. There was no way to read much positive into it. Best to encourage her to move on before getting hurt.)

I usually straighten the cards, but still one will turn up reversed once in awhile, and so I consider it both upright and reversed. I just don't reverse them beforehand. Either way works
 

Barleywine

Interesting. I don't get the first part of your interpretation. I would not interpret the Tower as wanting to be treated with respect. I would interpret it (upright) as wanting to break out of an old relationship pattern (or out of a specific relationship if that had been the issue), but with a reversal, I would think the person would be more likely to repeat old patterns and will *not* break out of the Tower--they are trapped in an old cycle maybe. I think that was my original interpretation, and they said (paraphrase) "No, no, I'm looking for stability--not the Tower." In other words, they kind of missed the point of what I was saying, but it made me think that the card was even more accurate in what it was saying. The thing she said she wanted was generally implied in the reversal, but what was even more apparent was that she was unlikely to get it. Same thing... trapped in an old cycle... unable or unwilling to break free from the Tower...

Anyways I still think we're reaching the same conclusions. The card doesn't suggest that the thing you want and the thing you will get are in alignment. Suggests it's a bad match.

The Tower corresponds to Mars and its assertive, aggressive "me-first" approach to almost everything. The reversal could show a desire to "cap it off" and not allow it full reign in the relationship. Think of it as a controlled burn rather than a wildfire. The promise may be stimulating but the reality could be too much to handle, hence a need to tame it and moderate its impulsiveness.
 

Grizabella

I can, and sometimes do, read reversals. But if and when I do, I do them from an upright deck. Meaning, I turn a portion of the cards around from a non-reversed deck and then when that reading is done, I re-upright the cards again and start out the next reading with all the cards upright and reverse a portion of the deck for the reading I'm doing. I have this irrational belief that if I leave the reversed cards in the deck, I may pick it up the wrong way around the next time and be reading non-reversed cards as reversed and vice versa. :p

I usually make my own spreads, so I incorporate a position or two into the spread that designates some of the cards into what, if actually reversed, would mean. (If that makes sense.)

I do agree, though, that reading reversed cards is important and can enrich a reading if used. But the actual cards doesn't need to be actually reversed physically for me.

And if I use them, I do re-upright the deck after the reading. If I want to use actual reversed cards, I'll turn a portion of the cards upside down during the shuffling phase.

Another suggestion, though, is to take into account the images on the cards when deciding to read reversals or not. Many times a deck's creator has used imaging that isn't meant to be read as reversed. Of course, as the reader you can do what you like and use reversals anyway, but sometimes it works better not to.

If I'm going to use reversals, it's usually with the RWS deck.
 

Barleywine

I can, and sometimes do, read reversals. But if and when I do, I do them from an upright deck. Meaning, I turn a portion of the cards around from a non-reversed deck and then when that reading is done, I re-upright the cards again and start out the next reading with all the cards upright and reverse a portion of the deck for the reading I'm doing. I have this irrational belief that if I leave the reversed cards in the deck, I may pick it up the wrong way around the next time and be reading non-reversed cards as reversed and vice versa. :p

I usually make my own spreads, so I incorporate a position or two into the spread that designates some of the cards into what, if actually reversed, would mean. (If that makes sense.)

I do agree, though, that reading reversed cards is important and can enrich a reading if used. But the actual cards doesn't need to be actually reversed physically for me.

And if I use them, I do re-upright the deck after the reading. If I want to use actual reversed cards, I'll turn a portion of the cards upside down during the shuffling phase.

Another suggestion, though, is to take into account the images on the cards when deciding to read reversals or not. Many times a deck's creator has used imaging that isn't meant to be read as reversed. Of course, as the reader you can do what you like and use reversals anyway, but sometimes it works better not to.

If I'm going to use reversals, it's usually with the RWS deck.

I usually start with a "fresh" deck too, but it's a freshly randomized one, using the method you taught me. I thoroughly mix everything up and then turn a number of the sub-packs (around half of the seven) upside down. That way there is little or no vestige left of the previous reading, which seems to me to be the main objective. Then I shuffle some more, and have the sitter shuffle before the deal. The way I see it, I put everything in total disarray, and the sitter puts it back into the right order for the reading. I haven't had much luck getting them to impose their own reversals, which would be ideal, but at least they align the deck with the randomized reversals in it. I use reversals with most of my decks, since I don't pay a lot of attention to the images any more, just the thoroughly internalized meanings that recognition triggers.