Historic Tarot : What We Do NOT Know.

Rosanne

Thanks Huck for posting! (and Hi!)
I thought I had read just about everything on Trionfi. I was wrong.
I knew about 1422, not the thirteen cards.
It would seem to me that the re-painted red backs are the suits not the decks, why would you have 4 decks and 5 images? I have no idea how much 6 lire was worth back then, even if payment was for 4 -re-paints and 13 cards. Seems somewhat odd.
BUT the main thing is there is a possibility of a 13 card 5th suit. (which matches the Mamluk), which would then be grist for the mill of 14 cards as a fifth suit, once the queen was added. I hope that is clearer than mud.
Any other tid-bits you can offer Huck?
~Rosanne
 

DoctorArcanus

From a Historic point of view there is still much we do not know about Tarot.
Please add to the list or correct misinformation.

We do not know......
...
Were Trionfi and Tarrochi the same thing.

We do know that “tronfi” and “tarocchi” were the same thing. The game simply changed name around 1500. There is no evidence that anything changed in the game at that time. We actually have explicit evidence of the fact that the two terms denoted the same thing. Francesco Vigili (or Vigilio) wrote in 1532:

"Franciscus enim ille meus Petrarcha picturatarum cartarum ludo Triumphorum nomen induxerat, optime quidem, quod in eo veluti bellica victoria spectatur. Barbaro ritu, taroch nunc dicunt nulla latina ratione".*

My Petrarch had given to the game of painted cards the name of Triumphs, without doubt an excellent choice, since in it you see something like a warlike victory. But now, with a barbarian rite, without relationship to the Latin, they call it taroc.

Of course, Vigilio is wrong when he attributes to Petrarch the invention of the game, but he knows what he says when he affirms that the name “ludus triumphorum” was replaced by “taroch”, since that change only happened a few decades before.

I found this quote (with French translation) in a wonderful book by Thierry Depaulis: “Le Tarot Revélé”. The passage is also available on Andrea Vitali's site.


Were the images Astrological.
Were the images purely Christian.

These two points are not of the Yes/No kind, so they don't seem to fit the list. Tarot was certainly Christian, but (as all Christian art of the time) it includes elements that existed before Christianity (e.g. the Sun and the Moon). It includes elements that accidentally are also relevant to Astrology (e.g. the Sun and the Moon again).
 

Huck

BUT the main thing is there is a possibility of a 13 card 5th suit. (which matches the Mamluk), which would then be grist for the mill of 14 cards as a fifth suit, once the queen was added. I hope that is clearer than mud.
Any other tid-bits you can offer Huck?
~Rosanne

Yes, there is a possibility (though connected to doubts), and this seems to be a logical deck inside a longer evolution.

If we assume the 4x13 deck as the imported form, as it is generally done ...

... then one natural development form would be to exchange the courts (as John of Rheinfelden has shown in 1377, for instance Queens instead of other cards or 2 kings and 2 queens), another is is to expand the courts (as JoR has shown in 1377 with his 60 card deck with an addition of Queen and a maid), a third to expand the number of suits (as JoR has given, though with some contradictions in the translations; for unknown reason the expert Arne Jönsen came to other structures than an older translation).

History has it, that JoR wrote 1377, a year, that followed a great emperor (Charles IV with the capital in Prague) journey from Prague to Aachen to crown his son Wenzel as king), and a year, in which a second emperor journey was projected (to Paris).

Prague/Bohemia is by not confirmed reports (Hübsch 1850) given as much earlier involved
with playing cards (1340) than otherwise attested in Europe (first c. 1370, but in a big storm of the the "playing card invasion" just since 1377).

JoR 1377 describes a new sensation and card decks in many variants, so that one has difficulties to assume, that this appeared all first in one year. Somewhere in the world a well running playing card industry must have developed, not observed by JoR, for whom this is a very hot new medium.

Bohemia is not too far from Freiburg (about 500 km), where John lived, but traffic and trade had been handicapped by the plague of 1350 and also by many following plagues. Further there might have been not observed prohibitions, which blocked expanded distributions (one prohibition is known from 1367 in Bern, and it's really astonishing how just playing cards should have arrived there in the heart of Western Europe - 2 years before Charles IV had been there on his travel to Arles).

Prague had a Golden Era in this time, the city had been full of artists, and prospered in spite of the plague, likely thanks to the condition, that the first big wave of the plague didn't arrive in Bohemia. It also didn't arrive in Milan as one of very few locations in Europe, and also for Milan we have, that Galeazzo and Bernarbo Visconti expanded their territory and laid the base for the condition, that Giangaleazzo Visconti in 1402 prepared to be crowned as an Italian king.

Back to the game structures: JoR describes a 60-cards-deck, which gained his enthusiasm and which should have been in the category "court deck", a deck for noble persons with much money. All number cards are filled with figures (professions), and it has 5 courts, king, two marshals, queen and a maid in each suit.
JoR detects in it an ideal representation of the state, similar as it is known for chess (in the interpretation of Cessolis, known since c. 1300).

Existed "trumping" in the rules or "trick-taking-games"? Arne Jönssen, the expert, somehow expressed himself as if it existed, without going to details.

If we follow the iconography, then we have (from the imported deck structure) 2 cards in each suit, that are designed in the manner of military, Ober and Unter, occasionally presented as fighter on horse (Ober) and as foot soldier (Unter). If any card would have been predefined by "optical appearance" as trump, than it should these both cards.

Now we have a game called "Schafkopf", known with this name since c. 1700 (so far in the future of 1377). It's local distribution is in Bavaria (at the Western border of Bohemia) and in the region of the Riesengebirge (at the Northern border of Bohemia).

History has it, that the Bohemian region had been full of Western (German) influences during the time of emperor Charles IV, but that since 1409 this German influence disappeared, replaced finally by the long enduring war of the Hussites.

Known Bohemian playing card development is confirmed rather late, it seems, that the Hussites didn't like cards, perhaps cause of religious reasons. But Nuremberg (Western border of Bohemia), however, became a great and much testified location with playing card production.
From this it seems logical, that German fugitives from Bohemia in 1409 gathered around the border of Bohemia (naturally not in Southern or Eastern regions, cause this were Slavic regions), waiting for better times. Games, which they played in Bohemia before moved with them from Bohemia to their new locations.

Schafkopf uses the rule, that Ober and Unter are predefined trumps, that, what one could expect, if one just looks at the optical representation of the cards. Ober and Unter were made for "fighting", and trumping means "fighting".

********

About nearly 50 years later we hear of a specific deck in Milan, which definitely knows the trumping rule: the Michelino deck.

It has (likely) 60 cards, mentioned are number cards with birds (likely 10 for each suit, so 40), 4 kings and 16 trump cards presented as a sequence (the trump sequence - though with other motifs and another number - is common in Tarot later). The trumps are Greek-Roman gods.
As courts are only mentioned "4 kings", no other is noted. If one assumes, that Martiano da Tortona, the writer of the text, if he had seen Queens or other figures, that he would have mentioned them, then one has to conclude, that the "16 trumps" were actually the earlier court cards, 4 for each suits (and the suits are named: Virtues, Riches, Virginity and Pleasures), and each god is given to one category, so actually to one suit.

So we have to see, that this is a 4x15-deck, as that, which already was known to JoR.
The iconographic content is exchanged, of course, the 4 kings have survived, but all else was modified.

From the trumping rule one might suspect, that it also survived as a not changed element. Possibly Queens and Maids in the JoR 60-cards-deck were also trumps, cause there were always two ways to capture foreign territory, either by war (by the two marshals Ober and Unter) or by love (by marriage of Queens and Maids).

So we have for a good part with the Michelino deck (in some parts already close to the later Tarot) just a variant of the JoR deck.

The communicative relation between Bohemian court and Milanese court is given. The king Wenzel gave for a lot of money the duke title to Giangaleazzo Visconti in 1395. A Milanese delegation in Prague negotiated the deal.
The deal became the major reason, why Wenzel became abdicated in the year 1400, cause German nobility felt a big reason to protest.

Filippo Maria Visconti, who - according Decembrio - had playing cards in his youth, had been 3 years old in 1395. We may well suspect, that he got a Bohemian court deck then, just the JoR deck or another variant of the deck type with the structure 4x15.

The Michelino deck can be dated to 1418-1425. The Ferrarese note (5x13) is from 1422.

The general suspicion is, that the council of Constance 1415-1418, where a lot of persons from all parts of Europe met, caused in a natural manner some knowledge, how playing cards in different countries were used, and that this condition stimulated playing card experiments at different locations. Something similar had been observed for the development of music in Europe.

An European event in the dimensions of the council had been missing for a long time, likely one has to go back to times "before the plague" to find something similar.

*********

The word "Trionfi" in context to playing cards appears for the current knowledge of the moment at September 17 in 1440.
Likely one has to suspect, that the period 1420-40 knew other experiments with cards as the few, that we know about, so there should have been more variants (and perhaps some similar to Trionfi decks, whatever these were in the beginning), but it seems not likely, that the use of the word "Trionfi" in this specific manner was already given long before. Meanwhile a good part of playing card material (perhaps "not enough" to be really sure) has shown up before 1440 (thanks to Franco Pratesi mostly), "Trionfi" didn't appear (7 documents till 1440-1449, about 200 documents between 1450-1465, have shown up meanwhile).

Information to "deck structures" is rare.

1. JoR 1377: 6 deck structures
2. 1380s: A Spanish deck is described with 44 cards.
3. 1418-1425: Michelino deck
4. 1422: the discussed Ferrarese note, possibly 5x13
5. 1423: 8 Imperatori cards in Ferrara, imported from Florence
6. 1426: appearance of the name Karnöffel
7. 1432: Meister Ingold with two descriptions, both 4x13, but variants for the lower court cards beside the king. One indicates the Ober and Unter positions as trumps, the other looks like 4x13 with a preferred suit (trumps ?)
8. 1440: first appearance of the deck name Trionfi
9. 1441: 14 figure in Ferrara
10. 1443: new appearance of Imperatori games (till 1452 or 1454)
11. 1445 + 1447: appearance of the deck or game name "Chorone"
12. 1449: Marcello interprets the Michelino as new ludus triumphorum
13. 1450: Curious deck names in letter of Francesco Sforza
14. 1457: Trionfi decks with 70 cards
15. 1466: first note of Minchiate

To this information come surviving cards (Cary-Yale, Charles VI, Hofämterspiel, other German decks), which add to our deck structure knowledge.

And the factor of the price of decks might be of importance. Expensive decks might indicate experimental decks. There's for instance a high priced deck recorded in 1387 for Mantova, which according the description somehow belongs to the category "court decks".

All these many variations in relative few documents only lead to the condition, that the theory of a mono-causal development of Tarot cards with 4x14+22-structure is not plausible.

Naturally the factor mass production technology simplified the market. Some experiments were successful and were imitated, others not. Deck forms, which didn't arrive the mass production technology, naturally died, or simply had their time and disappeared.

As we're interested in the origin of Tarot, we naturally cannot assume, that later very successful versions had been "with guarantee" also the first. The 4x13 deck might have been the first, but not Tarot.
As a deck form 4x14+22 is rather complex, it seems plausible, that it was preceded by simpler forms. 5x14 is simpler. If the original deck had been 4x13, then again 5x13 is "simpler" (closer to the assumed original) than 5x14.
 

Huck

We do know that “tronfi” and “tarocchi” were the same thing. The game simply changed name around 1500. There is no evidence that anything changed in the game at that time. We actually have explicit evidence of the fact that the two terms denoted the same thing. Francesco Vigili (or Vigilio) wrote in 1532:



My Petrarch had given to the game of painted cards the name of Triumphs, without doubt an excellent choice, since in it you see something like a warlike victory. But now, with a barbarian rite, without relationship to the Latin, they call it taroc.

Of course, Vigilio is wrong when he attributes to Petrarch the invention of the game, but he knows what he says when he affirms that the name “ludus triumphorum” was replaced by “taroch”, since that change only happened a few decades before.

I found this quote (with French translation) in a wonderful book by Thierry Depaulis: “Le Tarot Revélé”. The passage is also available on Andrea Vitali's site.

As I understand it, the book ...

timthumb.php


... is from 2013, Andrea Vitali's article is older. Andrea related the 1532 text to a situation in 1512, which is rather plausible.

The French had been just driven out of Italy, it's a moment of victory for specific parts of Italy. Alfonso d'Este was the first to use "Taroch" in 1505 (at least, as far we know it for sure), and Alfonso had been a friend of France. Consequently he lost in 1512. And so also the "Taroch" use has lost then.

On the winner side we have Alfonso's sister Isabella d'Este. Vigilio worked for her (child education) and the related piece of literature was given in a triumphal moment (a theatre play, which was attended by the important cardinal Gurk, friend of emperor Maximilian, who also belonged to the winner side), restoring "old Italy" and criticizing things which changed in the French time 1500-1512. A little later Isabella became responsible for introducing Massimiliano Sforza as the new ruler in Milan, and likely we know a connected Ludus Triumphorum deck, which was made for this occasion.
It's the one, which carried Isabella's motto at the ace of cups (which she adopted in 1505; "nec spes, nec metu"), given at Kaplan I, p. 99. (Rosenthal Tarocchi) and also used in the 4 Victoria and Albert Museum cards (Kaplan p. 104), which plausibly belongs to the same series.

So there are no "decades" between "introduction of Taroch" (1505), and "protest against taroch" (1512).

And if Alfonso's "Taroch" had been precisely the "Ludus Triumphorum", which existed before and that after 1505, is not an easy question. The Ludus Triumphorum of 1512 has its personal variations, for instance a falconer and a Visconti viper and some other different details.

*********

History has it, that the French reappeared 3 years later, and Massimiliano lived in France then.
The battle around the correct terminus was won by Taroch or similar.

1
 

Ross G Caldwell

is from 2013, Andrea Vitali's article is older. Andrea related the 1532 text to a situation in 1512, which is rather plausible.

It's not plausible, it's just a fact that the text quoted was published in 1532-34, not 1512.

There is no reason to believe that the 1512 Dialogo de Italia contained the phrase about taroch being a barbarous word which is found in the 1532-34 Italia e Mantua.

Italia e Mantua wasn't a "later edition" - it was a completely new work. Is there any reason to think that Sanudo's account of the earlier, 1512, play is defective? I don't think so.

The sentence "Barbaro ritu, taroch nunc dicunt nulla latina ratione" doesn't exist in 1512, to anyone's knowledge - and there is no reason - no evidence direct or indirect - at all to believe that it did. So it is unwise to contrive a theory which depends on its being there.

We earlier discussed this on AT -
http://tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=2932843&postcount=10

"I think this quote comes from the 1532-34 play Italia e Mantua, and not Vigilio's lost dialogue performed in 1512. If you read Vitali's text closely, you'll see that Carlo Dionisotti and Tania Basile, the editors of "Italia e Mantua" contained in Scritti di storia della letteratura italiana (vol. 1 (2008))
http://books.google.com/books?ei=rMe...#search_anchor
attribute the preservation of the 1512 dialogue to Marino Sanudo (Vitali's article, paragrah 5).

The dialogue Comoedia Veronae habita coram reverendissimo Gursensi Cesareo oratore et gubernatore ("A Comedy of Verona, Held in the Presence of the Most Reverend Imperial Orator and Governor of Gurk" [Matthew Lang]) is in volume 15 of I Diarii di Marino Sanuto
http://www.archive.org/details/idiar...rino35sanugoog
- columns 146-151.

It does not contain anything like the stuff about barbarous words in the later dialogue.

It goes like this:

1512 - Dialogo de Italia by Francesco "Mantovano" Vigilio - lost.
1512 - Marino Sanudo, Comoedia Veronae habita coram reverendissimo Gursensi Cesareo oratore et gubernatore, probably a close version of the lost Vigilio text, preserved in his [Sanudo's] diaries.
1532-34 - Italia e Mantua, published by Dionisotti and Basile, contains the triumphorum-tarocchi reference."
 

Rosanne

These two points are not of the Yes/No kind, so they don't seem to fit the list. Tarot was certainly Christian, but (as all Christian art of the time) it includes elements that existed before Christianity (e.g. the Sun and the Moon). It includes elements that accidentally are also relevant to Astrology (e.g. the Sun and the Moon again).
I have taken this point on board.
I certainly did not phrase that well!
To me, without Prudence clearly depicted (and why would it come disguised?) I feel that Tarot depicts something more like the term 'Civil' rather than 'Christian'; therefore one looks like the other- but there is a big difference. Something like the difference between the frescoes in Padua in a Church, and the frescoes in the government building in Siena. One is 'political' perhaps, and one is 'Christianity'. They both use some of the images that appear in Tarot.
~Rosanne
 

Ross G Caldwell

So there are no "decades" between "introduction of Taroch" (1505), and "protest against taroch" (1512).

There is no "protest against taroch" in 1512 - you are making it up. The text was published in 1532, hence "decades" later than the earliest mention of the word, in 1505.

And if Alfonso's "Taroch" had been precisely the "Ludus Triumphorum", which existed before and that after 1505, is not an easy question. The Ludus Triumphorum of 1512 has its personal variations, for instance a falconer and a Visconti viper and some other different details.

It is a very easy question - the ludus triumphorum and tarocchi are the same game, played with the same kind of cards. Don't forget the Steele Sermon, which lists the standard trumps and calls them ludus triumphorum. The date of the sermon is not certain, but those who have studied it date it to well within the 15th century. Dating it later, to the very time the paper was made (watermark around 1500), as you do, doesn't help your case here, it would seem.

The Goldschmidt and Guildhall cards are probably not Tarot. It's certainly reckless to bulid a theory about the trumps' composition being unsettled on their being Tarot. Even Kaplan, who reproduces them, admits they are not necessarily related to Tarot, and resemble German hunting packs more.
 

Huck

There is no "protest against taroch" in 1512 - you are making it up. The text was published in 1532, hence "decades" later than the earliest mention of the word, in 1505.

There were two stage appearances in September 1512, and it was a month with dramatic political changes inside a year with further heavy occurrences. Isabella d'Este and cardinal Gurk both played then very intensive roles, it was likely this year, when Isabella became a sort of "first lady" for Italy. The political party against France often met at Mantova and Isabella had the important function of the host.

I think, that there is no guarantee, that both stage presentations were totally identical ... possibly they were altered according specific conditions of the both cities. Verona belonged to Germany then. Would the Germans have had sense for the fine difference between ludus triumphorum and Taroch?

Also it's not clear, that Sanudo's text (who is said to have used the Verona version) had been totally correct.

It seems clear, that Isabella d'Este (and so likely also Francesco Vigilio in her service) knew the game name "Taroch" in 1512.
If they had an antipathy against the word, they likely had it long, starting with it already before 1512.
It wouldn't change much, if there was a statement with "Taroch" and "Ludus triumphorum" in 1512 or added by memory later by Vigilio or his son for the later version.
 

Rosanne

Well it appears, as Sir Edmund Hillary said of Everest...."We knocked the Bastard off!"
Tarocchi and Trionfi and Taroch are the same thing. Most likely.

Now I like the gradual development theory of image cards, But I am inclined to think that by the time of the PBM Visconti-22 was set, even if the Visconti left two off for reason of some sort of sensibilities. Is this a correct speculation?

I am also presuming correctly or not that the Cary Yale deck is the older deck?

~Rosanne
 

Huck

Tarocchi and Trionfi and Taroch are the same thing. Most likely.

Now I like the gradual development theory of image cards, But I am inclined to think that by the time of the PBM Visconti-22 was set, even if the Visconti left two off for reason of some sort of sensibilities. Is this a correct speculation?

I am also presuming correctly or not that the Cary Yale deck is the older deck?

~Rosanne

... :) ... The Boiardo poem has the Tarot structure 4x14+22 and is called "Trionfi", but the related deck is very different. The Sola Busca dito. Some of the decks with less trumps might have been closer to "Tarot" than these both. It's not clear, that Tarocchi and Trionfi were totally identical.

********

The PMB has only 14 + 6 cards by two different painters. I personally think, that the 6 cards were added in 1465.
Possibly there was then a version with 20 trumps or 19 + Fool.

The earliest document with clearly 22 special cards should be the Boiardo Trionfi poem, later called "games of passions". I date it to 1487.

It's naturally impossible to exclude, that in the experimental stage of the deck development ALSO decks with 22 special cards appeared, but there's no evidence. It's also possible, that versions existed with 23, 25, 26, 27 etc. trumps, but we ALSO have no evidence.
Some evidence or disputed or suspected evidence have versions with 14, 16, 20, 50 (so-called Mantegna Tarocchi) and the 41 of Minchiate has a similar rank as the 22 of Tarot (later it surely existed with this number).

The Cary Yale is mostly assumed to be older than PMB. I think, that it was made from a combination of Chess and Petrarca's Trionfi poem elements and had a 5x16 structure.
Dummett suggested, that it had 24 trumps + Fool.

***********

What we have now, thanks to Franco Pratesi and Arnold Esch mainly, a boom of new Trionfi card documents between 1440 and 1465 detected or published in the time November 2011 till now. These have mainly opened the "low-price market". Totally there are few documents only for the period 1440-49, about 200 for the period 1450-65. The decks seem to fall in their price (slowly) with possibly a dramatic fall around 1463 (but the documents are not totally clear and it needs further research).

Curiously some Flemish merchants are involved in Trionfi card imports to Rome. Burgundy was then at the height of its power, and it had a remarkable playing card production in Tournai since 1427, well documented.

http://trionfi.com/n/