Marseilles Courts

Hi everyone

As you probably know, I am very new to the Grimaud and Marseille decks in general. As part of getting to know the courts, I have been working through Rhiannon's Court Card exercises in the general section. They have been a very good way for me to familiarise myself with the cards, which at first seemed very alike; I wondered how I was ever going to get anything from them. However, I have. It is all intuition based at the moment, but I thought I would post my comments here for discussion and to find out if I was picking up on the relevant aspects of the character cards. I will post them in the order that I did the exercises. All comments are greatly appreciated.

Yaboot

SWORDS

The first thing that I notice about the Grimaud Courts is that the four courts are very similar in age. It is clear that the Valet is the youngest and that the Cavalier is a older than him, but none of the four have a dramatic age difference between them.

At first, I laid out the cards so that the Queen was on the left of the King, but rearranged them so that they face each other. They seem to fit together well, but I wonder, if possibly, they are brother and sister, rather than husband and wife, or lovers, due to the fact that they do look very similar. I would not be surprised if the Knave was the King’s son. When placed together, facing they have a similar stance and look like mirror versions of each other. When together, but facing away, their swords stand between them; is this suggesting that problems could arise between them due to the fact that they have similar temperaments.

The Cavalier seems the odd one out to me; and I wonder, if the Queen is indeed, the King’s sister, is the Cavalier her son. When the Cavalier is set next to the King, I feel no connection between them. When set in front of the Queen, the Cavalier charges forward, as if protecting his mother.

All four swords are of a different colour - ‘Roy D’Epee’ (King)- beige, ‘Reyne D’Epee’ (Queen) - Red, ‘Cavalier D’Epee’ - White, or possibly silver, and ‘Valet D’Epee’ - Yellow, or maybe, gold.

I do see these people as living in the same house/castle, but I do not see them as immediate family. They are like a small grouping of an extended family. I see the ‘Queen’ to wear the pants in this grouping; the king wriggles around on his throne and is willing to do whatever will please her. When set next to each other complimentarily, he seems to glance at her heart. Or is it her tummy? She is probably just holding her hand up but she could be rubbing her stomach; is she pregnant? I always saw the grounded Pentacle Queen to be the child-bearer of the courts. Maybe this queen is giving birth to new thoughts, rather than a child.
The Cavalier seems the most different of the four and I wonder if maybe he is the ‘black sheep’ of the family; the one with hair-brain schemes and off-beat ideas. His mother loves him but despairs of him at the same time.

If I lived next door to this family, I think that I would probably think they were ok. Of course, I would probably be a little irritated by the 3am wake up of the Cavalier screeching home on his horse from an all-night party, but generally, I think they would be fine to live next door to. I think that the King would nod good morning on his way to work, but I don’t see the Queen as someone that would pop in for a cup of coffee and a chat. She looks a little distressed in this card and I wonder if she can be a bit manipulative for her own gain.

CUPS

I have the two suits beside each other - the Swords and the Cups.

There is quite a difference. This lot do not look half as prepared as the Swords family. In comparison, they look a little dishevelled. Whereas the Knight of Swords rides bravely into the unknown on his powerful horse, the Knight of Cups trots along slowly on what looks more like a donkey. He has an oversized cup which is larger than the horses head and a bit of a confused drippy expression on his face. As I look at him, he reminds me of my friend, Sam. Sam is a very handsome young actor friend of mine but even though he is very striking looking - tall and blonde with very boyish looks, I have often joked with him about his dopey expression. I see this Knight (Cavalier) as Sam because I can feel his heart as I look into the picture. He may be riding the donkey (no offence to Sam's fiancee, Catherine, by the way, lol), but I can see that he is a kind and generous chap; and a considerate lover. He gives what he can and what he gives, are his emotions and feelings in that oversized cup; from that oversized heart. Love is important to him and he knows that he doesn't have to spend lots of money on flashy horses and designer robes to impress you and gain your attention. I am already fond of this Cavalier. There is something clumsy about him that makes him attractive.

The Valet looks dopier still. He seems to walk along aimlessly and doesn't have the regal stance of the Swords Page. He has opened the lid of his cup but doesn't seem to be able to understand what it is that he needs to do with what is inside. The flowers in his hair suggest youth. Neither the Valet or Cavalier have hats or crowns, suggesting once again, that due to the fact that what they have to offer is from the inside, they do not need them.

Which brings me to the queen. Another one with straggly hair, when compared to the Swords queen. This lot need a good shampoo and styling session!!! Regardless of the bad hair day, this queen looks much kinder than the one from the Sword suit. She looks approachable and generously holds out her challise. Her crown is more ornate than the Swords queen and I wonder if the bumfyness of it shows that she is comfortable with herself and others feel comfortable in her presence. Also, unlike the other queen, she holds her sword back, resting on her shoulder. Where the Swords queen holds her infront, almost as protection, this queen withdraws hers, showing no threat.

The King is older than the Sword king and looks fatherly. Is his queen his daughter or sister? In this situation, I don't think so. He may be a little older but they sit well together. She holds her cup out for him as a kind gesture, showing her love and admiration for him. He relaxes comfortably, with his left arm resting on his thrown. He looks happy with his family, even though that page can be a problem, and in general, I think that this is quite a close family unit.

I think that the King has the final say in this household and I think that due to the fact that the others respect him, they go along with that and are eager to make him proud of them. I see them as individuals but also as one. They would probably not be the most exciting family to live next door to but I doubt they would be much trouble. Like my friend, I am sure that the Cavalier would be popular with the ladies, but I don't think that he would use his charisma to obtain things in a dishonest way. If anyone got hurt in an emotional situation, I think it might be him. I have not always seen the Knight to be this way in other decks, but I like how I am finding him and his family in the Grimaud.

I think that I see my mum in the place of the Queen of Cups. There is something about the way she looks; and the way in which she holds herself. Her emotions are they key; she doesn’t have the sharpness of the Queen of Swords - like the Cups queen, she is kind and virtuous. She also does not have the fiery energy of the Queen of Batons; nor the directness of the Queen of Pentacles. I always linked the Rider Waite Queen of Cups to Princess Diana, but in the Grimaud, it is my mother that comes to the forefront; my mum is caring and gentle, as was Diana, and is the ‘Reyne de Coupe’

COINS

First impressions: the Valet seems more purposeful than the valet from the Sword suit; much more purposeful than the childlike and drippy cup Valet. He eyeballs the coin as he holds it close to his face; it is on eye-level, making him seem very focused on the traits of this suit. Unlike the other two Valet’s, he stands tall and fills the whole of the card - unlike any other court character. Around him, plants are growing and a coin either rests on the landscape or is buried within it. I imagine this second coin to show development and a seed that this Valet has planted; one that will grow with him - an investment.

The Cavalier, or Knight, is a little less serious looking. Both the ‘Cavalier De Coupe’ and the ‘Cavalier D’Epee’ hold the tools of their suit in front of them, but this cavalier chooses to rest it on his shoulder. The Cups Knight rides a horse relatively triumphantly into the landscape and the Swords horse rides up with his master upon him. This horse, as does the Knight, looks quite casual and hesitant. As in the Valet card , there is a coin shown at eye level. This time, rather than being held up to eye level, it is floating in mid-air. The cavalier just watches it. Maybe he should either grab it or use the club in his hand to hit it like you would in baseball. Is this an opportunity shown? Is this an opportunity missed? The environment that he rides on does not look as fertile as that of the Valet.

The Queen holds her coin and shows it to the King, if the cards are placed to face each other. The King holds a smaller coin beside his lap. He almost looks ashamed of the fact that his is not as large as that of his wife; if that is who she is. He crosses his leg (similar to that of the Emperor) and seems quite relaxed and caring, in the same way as the Cups King.
I wonder whether the Queen is the wife of the King due to the fact that she sits very well with the Knight. Their coins are more similar in size and when placed together, they mirror each others gazes on the same level as the coins. The two coins sit between them and I wonder if the attraction between these two is an understanding in money, finances, grounding and working for what it is that you want.
In the same way, the smaller coins, as held by the ‘Valet De Deniers’ and the ‘Roy De Deniers’ make for a convincing relationship. When stood next to the Knight, the Valet seems to be in competition with him. Which ever way the Queen is placed with the Valet, one turns their back on the other. The same applies with the King and the Knight.

Through these observations, I do not see this family as harmonious as the other two studied so far. I would have considered them to be more down to earth as a family, but then, maybe they lack the communication of the swords or the emotional connection of the cup families. If they are a family in the ‘Mother, Father and two Sons’ way, then I see the Knight to be the favourite for the mother - he can get away with anything in her eyes and they are very alike. The youngest son, however, reminds the King of himself. He is proud of what his son has achieved and what he will achieve (the possibly buried coin). I see the Queen to be the one wearing the pants - it looks as if it is possible that she is standing, rather than being seated on her thrown, and even though I sometimes see Queens to be inactive, this one looks as though she can be confrontational.

If I lived next door to these people, I don’t think they would as be as kind hearted as the ‘cup family’ and they strike me as more serious than that of the ‘sword’ family.
__________

The reason I decided to put these here is due to the fact that in the other threads, people are using all different decks and therefore, discussion about a certain deck is less likely. Having them here would be good for Marseilles feedback in my study. Cheers. Yaboot

BATONS

In all of the other suits, the Queen and King, if juggled about, at one point, will face and acknowledge each other. In this suit, they do not. Whichever one is juggled to face their spouse receives no acknowledgement. When the Queen looks fondly at her King, his gaze is somewhere in the distance. This also applies when their positions are reversed. Even though he faces towards her, when on her left, he doesn’t actually look ‘at’ her. Her thoughts, in this position seem ‘inward’ and ‘elsewhere’. Their batons are also very different; hers is more of a club, where his is more cylindrical and ornate. I suppose that as he sits behind her, even though they do not look at each other, he could be holding his baton up to protect her, should she need it. There is an age difference between the two - possibly. He appears a little younger than her; also, a little feminine. I see the Cups family as being the most feminine of the courts, possibly down to their sensitivity, but this King seems the more feminine of the four Kings. He holds his baton above the ground as if he is prepared to use it.

I see the Valet as the art student; the one that tries all the new fads, dresses differently from the others and is quite an ‘individual’. He is presentational; you can see the way he ‘displays’ the club. He looks into the distance, showing that he is some kind of visionary. I see him as inspiring news. The Valet looks different from the other courts in this set; even down to his having a different hair colour. He seems more like his mother, than his father. He could actually be female.

Whereas the other Cavalier’s are moving towards something and there is an open surface in front of them, this Cavalier fits the width of this card. He looks down, holding up his button, as if to demonstrate battles that he has won. It feels like quite a triumphant card and he looks quite experienced.

This family are definitely a family of ‘individuals’ and I don’t seem them working together as one. As already mentioned, when these courts are together, in whatever pairing, they never mutually acknowledge each other. I see them, in this sense, as being very independent. I think that in terms of wearing the trousers, I think that they all do in their own personal situations. They all seem to be winners in one way or another.

If I lived next door to this lot, I doubt that I would see much of them; I can imagine that they would always be out doing some kind of activity or working towards some sort of goal in their chosen hobby.

Yaboot - your insights are both brilliant and hilarious. Thanks for sharing!!! I will never again draw a Knight or Valet of Coupes without pondering their drippiness...

For some reason I have never thought of the Courts being related within a suit, it never (until recently when reading posts and books where the relationship between L'Empereur and L'Imperatrice has been explored, I always thought they were leaders in completely separate kingdoms) occured to me that the Kings and Queens were actually married to each other. Like L'Empereur and L'Imperatrice, I assumed, for some reason I have yet to explore, that the King was King of Land A and the Queens were Queen of Land B. But to think of them as members of the same family is new and intriguing to me. I think I will do this exercise too.

K, I have all 16 court cards laid out side by side. Interesting how the King and Queen of Batons are the only ones who aren't looking at each other. They are the only suit where all members are faced the same way. Here is a note on characters facing certain directions from Kris Hadar's site (I'm using his TdM):

The body is like a vehicle : to direct it,
There must be a thought,
Which the head symbolizes.


• If the face is looking to the right side of the card, it means that the thought is being projected to the future. The spirit is active, to conceive or analyze what is starting.

• If the character is looking to the left of the card, giving the impression that he is looking at the road traveled, he is meditating on his past. He is taking stock.

• If the character is looking forward, it means that the functions of analysis and synthesis are in perfect equilibrium with the character.

Adding to how active Batons are. I wonder if they're not both working 80 hours a week at sales or marketing or some other high-stress job and then schlepping the kids to and from day care and to and from soccer and when they're finally both home they're just too tired to acknowledge each other, but they'd be bored if they sat still for five minutes. She probably doesn't want to take the time to use conditioner in her hair!

The Queen of Swords looks pregnant, and is even resting her hand on her belly, which kind of verifies it's not just her gown for me. The King of Swords seems to be gazing at her belly, looking quite pleased. They appear to be by FAR the youngest royal couple. This is the only Knight with an actual helmet.

The King and Queen of Deniers are the oldest royal couple. The King reminds me of the guy in the RWS 10 of Pents - established, yet kindly. I like the fin on his hat. This Knight is obviously not off to fight in a battle, perhaps more to seek his fortune, or his parents sent him off on a business-related errand. The valet, the only court without a title printed on the card, has two coins. I've been wondering about the significance of this, I'll do a search later.

The King and Queen of Cups do look like a mismatched pair. There seems to be quite an age difference, although she does seem to have let herself go. Her romantic King loves her for what's on the inside. Aww. The little lid on his cup in open, hers is closed. The Knight appears to have a hat, but it's thrown back, making him the only one not wearing a head dress of some sort. LOL - I see the drippiness! But he is Mr. Macho compared to the valet - straight from Woodstock with his crown of flowers, and his long, wavy hair. In the various decks I've collected now, there's quite a bit of variance as to what's going on with his cup: in some, he has part of his robe draped over it, covering it, in others, part of his robe is tied to it, but not completely covering it. In Hadar's, the cup is covered. It's abit of odd-looking jerry-rigging he's done there, but he's gazing so fondly at it, he obviously doesn't want to risk loosing whatever's in there. (A fish? LOL! He's carrying around his pet fish!) Despite his ultra-drippiness, he is the only valet (other than the Valet of Swords who would kind of need a sword) who is armed - he has a little dagger at his waist. Must protect his fish! (Sorry, I am superimposing a bit of RWS here, but it's just speculation that he has a pet fish.)

Only the Knights are outdoors, emphasizing perhaps their active natures. However, only the King of Batons and the Queen of Cups have windows in their backgrounds.


this was kinda fun!