The Lovers

Minos

Re: "Pelasgian" Creation Myth

firemaiden said:
It seems the source of the word "Pelasgian" for Banzhof is Robert Graves. This "Pelasgian Creation Myth" is scattered all over the interenet, but the only source listed is Robert Graves 1959 Creation Myths. It seems the original source is in doubt, I understand in recent years Graves has been much discredited.

Be that as it may Banzhof was undoubtedly just repeating what he read.

Ah, okay, I see it now. Graves's ideas were...idiosyncratic, even for the time he was writing.

I was quite taken with this creation myth, as are many because it fits perfectly with the big bang theory of creation.

Yes! Whatever its status as history, it does work quite nicely as myth.
 

Minos

Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Richard said:
Wow...a lot to chew on here, much of it not *quite* on topic...

Sort of. But I do think the idea of a god having a mortal double whom he torments and kills, and who then receives immortal glory thereby, ties in with the Cain and Abel/Romulus and Remus myths.

Both of these complexes point to a synthesizing of two elements that works somewhat differenly than the normal harmony-of-male-and-female implied in most Lovers cards.

Rather than opposite things combining, similar things conflict. A new state is still produced, but in a quite different (perhaps more powerful?) way.

Instead of just love, we have love and strife, which is both a more realistic picture of the way lovers act and a more effective formula for transformation.

I don't know why I didn't put this together before, but Orpheus getting torn to pieces...do you think that would imply an association with Osiris?

Yes. Almost anywhere Dionysus shows up, dismemberments start happening, which suggests a common Near Eastern heritage with Osiris, filtered through a Greek lens.

Orpheus is torn to pieces by maenads; only his head is preserved, which continues to sing and prophesy. Lycurgus is driven mad and hacks his daughters to death with an ax, thinking they are grape-vines. Pentheus is rent by his mother, who thinks he is a lion cub.

In the Orphic fragments, Dionysus himself - not the second Dionysus born to Semele, but the first Dionysus, the child-ruler of the universe born to Persephone - is cut to pieces by the Titans after they paint their faces white, dance around him, and dazzle him with toys and a mirror. They then boil, roast and eat his limbs, with only the heart being preserved by Athena.

Zeus strikes the Titans dead with lightning and the smoke from their ashes gives birth to humanity, who are part Titan and part god. A new Dionysus is made from the heart, and is set with Persephone over the process of freeing the divine in man from the Titanic nature.

To bring this back to the thrust of our discussion, we might say that the Thoth Art card represents the process by which the divine is extracted from the Titan in us (Persephone, like Art, was supposed to have had two faces and four eyes; the cauldron recalls both the alchemical process by which the purification might happen and the cauldron in which Dionysus was cooked).

The fratricide of the Lovers/Brothers ("The Children of the Voice"), which in the cases of Cain/Abel, Romulus/Remus, and Dionysus/Orpheus marks the beginning of laws and oracles, would represent the revelation, institution, and commencement of this purification-process - "the Oracle of the Mighty Gods."

Just my prelimary musings, anyways.

Love is the Law, Love under Will.
 

isthmus nekoi

Oh yes, thanks for the clarification, Minos. It's been a long time since I read about Orpheus and co, but the topic has always been fascinating to me.

There were some interesting texts written about Mithras, but yes, a lot of it is speculation. If I can find the titles for those interested, I'll post them here. Personally, I saw a lot of strong visual links from Mithras to Rider Waite's tarot, haven't really looked for them in Thoth yet.

Apollo, was he a twin w/Diana?
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Oh, I don't mind my name being spelt wrong, Richard, I'll admit it's quite a mouthful. And yes, torn to pieces.... Osiris must die in order that he can be reborn into his new form. I'll have to reread the myths (Orpheus/Osiris) more in depth to link them up to a more satisfactory nature. This is vaguely reminiscent of Christ/Abel and Dumuzi/Tammuz who also die first as humans and then take on a more godlike role. Dumuzi (shepherd) is the chosen lover of Inanna (who almost chose the farmer). Tammuz is the Babylonian counterpart, Inanna becoming Ishtar.
Right, I like the Inanna/Erishikagal (sp!) binary better than Lilith/Eve b/c here we have a more similar c/a dynamic of "good" and "evil" for lack of better terms.

Good alchemical primer. So many alchemical texts I've read (all except one!) are derived from Jung's writings that I would like to seriously branch out. If you don't mind the bias, to begin w/, I'd suggest Edward Edinger as a good interpretor of Jung and I think maybe Marie-Louise von Franz has also written good intros to Jung's take. If you don't mind reading Jung himself, his Mysterium Conionctio or however it's spelt is where it's at, although probably not a good place to begin unless you resonate w/the ideas, and have a solid grounding in Jungian theory.
 

Richard1

Hmmm...Apollo and Diana...yet another set of twins to think about...
And thanks for the alchemy suggestions, Isthmus! I tend to like reading original sources first and commentary afterwards (which made reading Finnegans Wake a mess, as I'm sure you can imagine...), so I'll check out Jung next time I hit the library.
I have to say that my reading list these days would certainly have surprised me even a year ago...
And drunkenness and dismemberment...THAT's something to look into...
 

Minos

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Richard said:

And drunkenness and dismemberment...THAT's something to look into...

Oh yeah! Dismemberment is a common mythic theme in shamanic cultures. (Just as drunkenness is an important metaphor in trance-possession cults like Voodoo). The feeling of the soul leaving the body leads pretty naturally to the image of the body being pulled apart, and the really essential thing (like Dionysus-Zagreus's heart or Orpheus's head) emerging on its own.

One of the theories that's been kicking around classical scholarship for a while is the idea that Greece absorbed influence from a shamanic culture to the north (the home of shamanism is Northern Eurasia) at some point during the sixth/seventh centuries BC.

Orpheus was from Thrace, the semi-barbarian land to the North of Greece. Apollo, who inspired oracles, was supposed to winter in the far-off Northern land of the Hyperboreans. Artemis had an important cult-center at Tauris on the North coast of the Black Sea (allegedly invovling human sacrifice). Ares, another god with trance-possession powers, had important connections with Thrace and Scythia, which is now part of Southern Russia. Dionysus was the "god of Nysa", a mountain in Thrace (or Libya, or India, or Ethiopia, depending on who you ask.)

The shaman-hypothesis is the kind of 19th-century-seat-of-the-pants-derring-do semi-groundless speculation that small-minded modern scholars love to refute. But they've so far have been loath to do it in this case, mostly because it would require the unpleasant conclusion that the Greeks invented the shamanic/voodoo practices of Orphic and Bacchic cult all on their own.

Love is the Law, Love under Will.
 

firemaiden

Minos said:
The shaman-hypothesis is the kind of 19th-century-seat-of-the-pants-derring-do semi-groundless speculation that small-minded modern scholars love to refute.
hahahahahah - this is adorable Minos! I can hear a phd thesis writing itself in no time!
 

firemaiden

Minos said:
But I do think the idea of a god having a mortal double whom he torments and kills, and who then receives immortal glory thereby, ties in with the Cain and Abel/Romulus and Remus myths.

Gosh! it sure does! now I understand how we can see the Cain and Abel thing as a creation myth -- the mortal double! it never occured to me before. So that would be like the sacrifice of christ - the mortal double of the Father. I never understood the Cain and Abel story before. At all.

Can you say more about Romulus and Remus then?
 

firemaiden

dissolve and coagulate?

Minos said:
Both of these complexes point to a synthesizing of two elements that works somewhat differenly than the normal harmony-of-male-and-female implied in most Lovers cards.

Rather than opposite things combining, similar things conflict. A new state is still produced, but in a quite different (perhaps more powerful?) way.

Instead of just love, we have love and strife, which is both a more realistic picture of the way lovers act and a more effective formula for transformation.
.

Minos I am in awe and terror of your en-cyclops-pedic, powerful and focussed mind!

Please can you elaborate, or clarify and develop you ideas above in relation to this from the Book of Thoth: "This card and Atu XIV together compose the comprehensive alchemical maxim: Solve et coagula."
 

Minos

firemaiden said:

Can you say more about Romulus and Remus then?

Romulus and Remus are doubles - even down to their names. Both variations on a masculinized form of 'Roma'.

In 'Romulus', you've got the diminutive '-ulus' ending tacked onto it; in 'Remus' the vowel of the stem gets switched around - something that doesn't happen in classical Latin but is a remnant of an older layer of Indo-European, which you can see in English verbs like write/wrote.

Romulus and Remus, being suckled by the she-wolf, are both iterations of an old wolf-man/shepherd-king motif that shows up in Greece in figures like Lycaon (lit. 'wolf-man', the cannibalistic king of Arcadia and son of Robert Graves's pal Pelasgus.) I'm sure there are parallels in Celtic or Germanic myth as well.

Anyways, this figure is always associated with a similar wolf-shepherd-agricultural god: in Lycaon's case, Zeus Lycaeus ('wolfish Zeus'), in Romulus's case, Mars/Quirinus, with whom he is often associated/confused in cult.

Thing about wolves is, they're both the most social of animals, in that they hunt intelligently in packs, and the most asocial of animals, in that they prey upon man and his flocks - the wolf was a favorite metaphor for the tyrant in Greek philosophy.

So the wolf is both a good way to talk about founding society, and also something you have to distance yourself from.

In Lycaon's case, this was accomplished relatively simply. Lycaon invents culture, but then offers up a human sacrifice to the gods and is punished, an event commemorated in a secret ritual in Arcadia down to Plato's day.

In Romulus's case, it's more complicated, since the story is bound up with the old practice of leaving a human sacrifice in the foundation of a building or city wall, like the mythical 'fair lady' walled up in London bridge.

So Romulus offers the most potent sacrifice possible, a double of himself, on the new walls of Rome, and then goes on to found the city. (Crowley said the most potent sacrifice was 'a male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence.')

But then he becomes a tyrant and the Senate decides to kill him, except he's assumed up into heaven as the god Quirinus before they get the chance.
 

Minos

Re: dissolve and coagulate?

firemaiden said:

Please can you elaborate, or clarify and develop you ideas above in relation to this from the Book of Thoth: "This card and Atu XIV together compose the comprehensive alchemical maxim: Solve et coagula."

Aw man, do I hafta be cute and brilliant every day?

The Tower is not destroyed by lightning merely by chance. It has to be destroyed by lightning because there is something inside that is a blasphemy to gods and men, something so unspeakable that the universe cannot tolerate it being for another second.

You see this kind of thing in some of Lovecraft's and Borges's stories.

So whereas in the Lovers you have creation through the conflict of similars, in the Tower you have destruction because of the unbearable collusion of dissimilars, of the familiar with the Other - the dove with the terrible lion-serpent, who should never be together but always strive to secretly collaborate in ways that should not be.