More curiosity...

Richard

Ahh, there it is. That's what Crowley did. In his deck, Lust is 11 and Adjustment is 8, but he kept the GD astrological correspondences. It's only Crowley's arrangement that causes a loop. My diagram's wrong. (Diagram has been updated)

But it doesn't really work on the other end since he left the Emperor number 4 and the Star 17, and since Tzaddi and He were transposed they end up not moving, so there's really no justification for a loop on that end. It looks like Crowley just did it.

The variables involved here are 1) the numerical ordering of the Trumps, 2) the Hebrew letter attributions, 3) order of the Zodiac constellations. (Have I left anything out?) Pictorial representation thus requires a three-dimensional graph. It is difficult to depict what is going on a 2-dimensional computer monitor. The 2-dimensional double loop, which only partially intrudes into 3-dimensions, is only a partial representation.
 

Michael Sternbach

The variables involved here are 1) the numerical ordering of the Trumps, 2) the Hebrew letter attributions, 3) order of the Zodiac constellations. (Have I left anything out?) Pictorial representation thus requires a three-dimensional graph. It is difficult to depict what is going on a 2-dimensional computer monitor. The 2-dimensional double loop, which only partially intrudes into 3-dimensions, is only a partial representation.

Can you describe how it could be done in 3D? I try to visualize it but don't get a clear picture right now.
 

Aeon418

Can you describe how it could be done in 3D? I try to visualize it but don't get a clear picture right now.
The simplest method is to actually work it out with the cards in front of you. Lay out all the Thoth Trumps in a line according to traditional numeral order, 0 - XXI. If you now look at the Hebrew letters you've got four letters out of order: Tzaddi, Lamed, Teth, and Heh. There's also one loop in the Zodiac signs: Leo-Libra.

Now counterchange those four cards to form the Hebrew alphabet order, Aleph to Tau. You've now got four Trumps out of order: XVII, XI, VIII, and IV. And you've also created an Aries-Aquarius loop in the zodiac.
You've got two flat linear sequences connected by a common looping of the zodiac. Flip-flopping back and forth between these two sequences might help you see the 3D looping via the oscillation of these two 2D models.

But if you want it in real 3D you have to do whole thing all over again with blue and red coloured foil over your eyes. Just joking. :laugh:
 

Zephyros

About the sandwiches, what I meant was that either "layer" is done differently and for different reasons but together they become greater than what they are separately. The same rules don't apply to each loop, but each would be lopsided without the other. Incidentally, I hate peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, but that's another story.

Still, you also can't treat the issue as a purely technical one, although that is tempting. Even putting aside "צ is not the Star," each loop can be traced back to doctrines found in the Book of Law, and must be looked at in that context. Without that they really do lack context and meaning. Even within the cards themselves their placements can have far reaching ramifications.

Aiwass wasn't teaching Crowley about Tarot or the Tree of life, those are just methods of categorization of knowledge. He was telling him the Word of the Aeon of Horus, and so his messages must be looked at through that lens. Even if it's a myth, even if it's a fairytale, those things still follow certain rules (a frog must be a Prince in order for a Princess's kiss to restore him, otherwise it's just weird).

Who knows, maybe Crowley effed it up. Someone I once knew was convinced he did and that the Star should have no letter. I think that's absurd, but heck, why not. Either way, a certain leap of the imagination is needed.
 

Michael Sternbach

The simplest method is to actually work it out with the cards in front of you. Lay out all the Thoth Trumps in a line according to traditional numeral order, 0 - XXI. If you now look at the Hebrew letters you've got four letters out of order: Tzaddi, Lamed, Teth, and Heh. There's also one loop in the Zodiac signs: Leo-Libra.

Now counterchange those four cards to form the Hebrew alphabet order, Aleph to Tau. You've now got four Trumps out of order: XVII, XI, VIII, and IV. And you've also created an Aries-Aquarius loop in the zodiac.
You've got two flat linear sequences connected by a common looping of the zodiac. Flip-flopping back and forth between these two sequences might help you see the 3D looping via the oscillation of these two 2D models.

But if you want it in real 3D you have to do whole thing all over again with blue and red coloured foil over your eyes. Just joking. :laugh:

Thanks, Aeon, that is making it clearer. Most of all, I can see that we indeed get two loops by setting the Hebrew alphabet back to its proper order. However, when switching Lamed and Teth, we set Libra and Leo in proper sequence whereas by switching He and Tzaddi, we set Aquarius and Aries out of sequence. So, the two loops are in a way each other's inversion.
 

Michael Sternbach

About the sandwiches, what I meant was that either "layer" is done differently and for different reasons but together they become greater than what they are separately. The same rules don't apply to each loop, but each would be lopsided without the other. Incidentally, I hate peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, but that's another story.

Still, you also can't treat the issue as a purely technical one, although that is tempting. Even putting aside "צ is not the Star," each loop can be traced back to doctrines found in the Book of Law, and must be looked at in that context. Without that they really do lack context and meaning. Even within the cards themselves their placements can have far reaching ramifications.

That sounds interesting! Elaboration requested.

Aiwass wasn't teaching Crowley about Tarot or the Tree of life, those are just methods of categorization of knowledge. He was telling him the Word of the Aeon of Horus, and so his messages must be looked at through that lens. Even if it's a myth, even if it's a fairytale, those things still follow certain rules (a frog must be a Prince in order for a Princess's kiss to restore him, otherwise it's just weird).

Who knows, maybe Crowley effed it up. Someone I once knew was convinced he did and that the Star should have no letter. I think that's absurd, but heck, why not. Either way, a certain leap of the imagination is needed.

I have once seen it mentioned on another thread, but it might be worth reproducing it here: The BoL says that all the GD letter attributions to the Major Arcana are correct except Tzaddi to The Star. If we take this literally, then He does in fact belong to The Emperor. Of course, this not only leaves as wondering what letter could possibly correspond to The Star, but also what to do with Tzaddi.

AC must have been really wrestling with the switch himself. For one thing, in his description of The Emperor, he treats this Trump as connecting Chokmah with Tiphareth along the path of He, notwithstanding that path's reassignment to The Star. The symbolism of the card is showing that, too.
 

Aeon418

Thanks, Aeon, that is making it clearer. Most of all, I can see that we indeed get two loops by setting the Hebrew alphabet back to its proper order. However, when switching Lamed and Teth, we set Libra and Leo in proper sequence whereas by switching He and Tzaddi, we set Aquarius and Aries out of sequence. So, the two loops are in a way each other's inversion.
You've got it. The transition between the two different card orders is what alternately creates and straightens both of the loops. But as you have noticed, there is a 'flip-flop' type inversion in the process.

Crowley could have tried to tie it all up in one sequence by keeping Aries with Heh and Aquarius with Tzaddi. But I see no evidence of Aries symbolism in Atu XVII. Nor do I see any Aquarian traits in Atu IV. So an oscillating double loop is what we end up with.
Btw, I corrected XVIII to XVII in my quote, as it's obviously a typo; you may want to do that in your original post as well. I will edit this last paragraph out of this post afterwards. ;)
Good catch. Corrected. :thumbsup:
 

Aeon418

I have once seen it mentioned on another thread, but it might be worth reproducing it here: The BoL says that all the GD letter attributions to the Major Arcana are correct except Tzaddi to The Star. If we take this literally, then He does in fact belong to The Emperor. Of course, this not only leaves as wondering what letter could possibly correspond to The Star, but also what to do with Tzaddi.
But if you are going to go down that route you have to go the whole hog. The line in question reads:
All these old letters of my Book are aright; but צ is not the Star. This also is secret: my prophet shall reveal it to the wise.
If this line in verse I:57 is interpreted to mean that Heh and the Emperor are still a happy couple, what did the 'prophet' reveal to the wise about Tzaddi and the Star?
AC must have been really wrestling with the switch himself. For one thing, in his description of The Emperor, he treats this Trump as connecting Chokmah with Tiphareth along the path of He, notwithstanding that path's reassignment to The Star. The symbolism of the card is showing that, too.
But how do you reconcile that with the design and description of the Star. The card features the Goddess Nuit pouring the waters of Binah across the Abyss. And Crowley's description of the card is fully consistent with the double letter Heh in the tetragrammaton.

A footnote in Magick in Theory and Practice may provide an answer. Whether it's the answer is another matter entirely. In the chapter on the formulas of ALHIM and ALIM Crowley uses the traditional Ram/Lamb correspondence for the letter Heh. But the footnote at this point reads:
Aleister Crowley said:
The letter He is the formula of Nuith, which makes possible the process described in the previous notes. But it is not permissible here to explain fully the exact matter or manner of this adjustment. I have preferred the exoteric attributions, which are sufficiently informative for the beginner.
 

Zephyros

Aeon418 said:
Crowley could have tried to tie it all up in one sequence by keeping Aries with Heh and Aquarius with Tzaddi. But I see no evidence of Aries symbolism in Atu XVII. Nor do I see any Aquarian traits in Atu IV. So an oscillating double loop is what we end up with.

That flip flop is what makes it so dynamic, making it almost as though both cards occupy both paths simultaneously... which connects to Michael's...

That sounds interesting! Elaboration requested.

Keep in mind that I often talk out of my ass making grand statements, and any serious Crowley scholar like Aeon would (and probably should) scoff at my efforts. The tracing back to the BoL I mentioned is based only on my own perverse scheme of mixing things up at will (although probably not at Will). When I was studying this, I sought to bend my mind to every possible possibility. It ain't pretty, but it's pretty good.

If we assume that the two cards can be interchanged, in essence, the Emperor is physically between Chochma and Tiphareth but spiritually between Netzach and Yesod, then we can start to play games. To start with, it depends on who's who. Chochma can represent the general, all-encompassing Will. With the Star spiritually connecting Chochma to Tiphareth, we have Love under Will, and it is actually there, right under the general Will.

Then, remember that Nuit is "divided for Love's sake," and division and love lead to the obvious Lovers. Binah is divided by the Lovers in order to experience separation and reconstitution, and so the Star, in its spiritual aspect opposite the Lovers, fulfills this duality.

Moving on, "Every man and every woman is a star" possibly refers to the duality outlined above, a hint of 0=2.

4. Every number is infinite; there is no difference: The placement ultimately doesn't matter, it the message behind it that matter.

12. Come forth, o children, under the stars, & take your fill of love!: Possibly the Lovers basking under the Star(s)?

I suppose you get the picture? One can go on to find similar justifications for the Emperor being where he is and on the complimentary path. Again this is all my own mind games, but that's what it's all about. I could go on and subvert the entire Book of Law this way, but I guess you get where my opinion is coming from.
 

Abrac

You get a loop at both ends but the whole thing unbalanced.

If you follow the path shown here, the letters are in order but the cards are out of order, and also you have to travel by a different path on the left loop than the one on the right to keep the letters in order.

If you follow this path, everything's out of order.

The left doesn't really seem like a natural compliment to the right one to me. It seems a bit forced.