The Empresses Bag? (Noblet)

kwaw

Bat Chicken said:
From what I have been able to find, the sleeve style seen in the card is very common between 1440 and 1460 in France and Italy (in male clothing in England) - and it is worn in a variety of ways....

As discussed in the Cary-Yale thread previously linked the style, which was looked into and discussed with examples by several members, was quite common over a wide period of time in various areas.

Cary-yale thread:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=62044&page=3&pp=10


Kwaw
 

Bat Chicken

Yup... got it the first time, thanks...!
I just thought I'd share an Italian image from the time we are most concerned with....
 

kwaw

Debra said:
Back to the Empress. Is there any reason historically to believe that this sort of Queen would be holding a bag of grain? She's not an "earth goddess"--she's the wife of the Emperor.

As an allegorical figure she represents the highest state of womanhood, and as Empress would have been readily identified for example with Mary; but also for example with Venus. Venus is often represented as an Empress in medieval manuscripts and images of Venus as Empress similar to that of Tarot can be found in renaissance architecture and art.

The allegorical sequence taken as a sort of didactic poem would have automatically brought to the educated renaissance mind and beyond the great didactic poem de rerum natura by Lucretius taken as an exampler of the type from its rediscovery in 1419; firstly as exempler of the didactic poetic form but later (16th and 17th century) for its atomism in relation to philosophy and the birth of a new science.

It starts of with an invocation or hymn to Venus:


Mother of Rome, delight of Gods and men,
Dear Venus that beneath the gliding stars
Makest to teem the many-voyaged main
And fruitful lands- for all of living things
Through thee alone are evermore conceived,
Through thee are risen to visit the great sun-
Before thee, Goddess, and thy coming on,
Flee stormy wind and massy cloud away,
For thee the daedal Earth bears scented flowers,
For thee waters of the unvexed deep
Smile, and the hollows of the serene sky
Glow with diffused radiance for thee!
For soon as comes the springtime face of day,
And procreant gales blow from the West unbarred,
First fowls of air, smit to the heart by thee,
Foretoken thy approach, O thou Divine,
And leap the wild herds round the happy fields
Or swim the bounding torrents. Thus amain,
Seized with the spell, all creatures follow thee
Whithersoever thou walkest forth to lead,
And thence through seas and mountains and swift streams,
Through leafy homes of birds and greening plains,
Kindling the lure of love in every breast,
Thou bringest the eternal generations forth,
Kind after kind. And since 'tis thou alone
Guidest the Cosmos, and without thee naught
Is risen to reach the shining shores of light,
Nor aught of joyful or of lovely born,
Thee do I crave co-partner in that verse
Which I presume on Nature to compose
For Memmius mine, whom thou hast willed to be
Peerless in every grace at every hour-
Wherefore indeed, Divine one, give my words
Immortal charm.


Just as the Noblet tarot arises in a period torn apart from religious wars Lucretius wrote his poem during a time of great civil strife and just as our Empress seems to me, face forward calm and unmoving, to call for peace so Lucretius request that Venus grant that war in his time be lulled to rest:


Lull to a timely rest
O'er sea and land the savage works of war,
For thou alone hast power with public peace
To aid mortality; since he who rules
The savage works of battle, puissant Mars,
How often to thy bosom flings his strength
O'ermastered by the eternal wound of love-
And there, with eyes and full throat backward thrown,
Gazing, my Goddess, open-mouthed at thee,
Pastures on love his greedy sight, his breath
Hanging upon thy lips. Him thus reclined
Fill with thy holy body, round, above!
Pour from those lips soft syllables to win
Peace for the Romans, glorious Lady, peace!
For in a season troublous to the state
Neither may I attend this task of mine
With thought untroubled, nor mid such events
The illustrious scion of the Memmian house
Neglect the civic cause.


But what has Venus to do with a bag of grain~seed, an attribute usually of Ceres? For Lucretius as atomist materialist Venus for him was purely an allegorical personificaton of Mother Nature, for whom all nature proceeds from and is composed of atoms, the 'seeds' of things:


Whilst human kind
Throughout the lands lay miserably crushed
Before all eyes beneath Religion- who
Would show her head along the region skies,
Glowering on mortals with her hideous face-
A Greek it was who first opposing dared
Raise mortal eyes that terror to withstand,
Whom nor the fame of Gods nor lightning's stroke
Nor threatening thunder of the ominous sky
Abashed; but rather chafed to angry zest
His dauntless heart to be the first to rend
The crossbars at the gates of Nature old.
And thus his will and hardy wisdom won;
And forward thus he fared afar, beyond
The flaming ramparts of the world, until
He wandered the unmeasurable All.
Whence he to us, a conqueror, reports
What things can rise to being, what cannot,
And by what law to each its scope prescribed,
Its boundary stone that clings so deep in Time.
Wherefore Religion now is under foot,
And us his victory now exalts to heaven.
I know how hard it is in Latian verse
To tell the dark discoveries of the Greeks,
Chiefly because our pauper-speech must find
Strange terms to fit the strangeness of the thing;
Yet worth of thine and the expected joy
Of thy sweet friendship do persuade me on
To bear all toil and wake the clear nights through,
Seeking with what of words and what of song
I may at last most gloriously uncloud
For thee the light beyond, wherewith to view
The core of being at the centre hid.
And for the rest, summon to judgments true,
Unbusied ears and singleness of mind
Withdrawn from cares; lest these my gifts, arranged
For thee with eager service, thou disdain
Before thou comprehendest: since for thee
I prove the supreme law of Gods and sky,
And the primordial germs of things unfold,
Whence Nature all creates, and multiplies
And fosters all, and whither she resolves
Each in the end when each is overthrown.
This ultimate stock we have devised to name
Procreant atoms, matter, seeds of things,
Or primal bodies, as primal to the world.


Kwaw

ref:
Of the Nature of Things by Titus Lucretius Carus, trans., Leonard, W. E.
 

kwaw

The poet requests Venus to grant peace and rest from war

...Lull to a timely rest
O'er sea and land the savage works of war,
For thou alone hast power with public peace
To aid mortality; since he who rules
The savage works of battle, puissant Mars,
How often to thy bosom flings his strength
O'ermastered by the eternal wound of love-
And there, with eyes and full throat backward thrown,
Gazing, my Goddess, open-mouthed at thee,
Pastures on love his greedy sight, his breath
Hanging upon thy lips. Him thus reclined
Fill with thy holy body, round, above!
Pour from those lips soft syllables to win
Peace for the Romans, glorious Lady, peace!

de rerum natura by Lucretius ~ Translation be Leonard, William E.

Mars 'conquered' by Venus was a common theme, often as an allegory of peace. Here is an image of Mars enchained by Venus from the Palazzo Shifanoia, Ferrara:

VenusMarsPeace.jpg


Notice her crown of flowers, like the image of one of the two woman in the 'Lover' (refering to the man or perhaps cupid/eros?) card VI in the TdM type pattern, identifying her as a type of Venus Natura. The two woman I relate to the Popesse and Empress as types of Venus Urania and Venus Natura, the Lover himself the Bateleur (and I+II+III=VI).

So the symbolic meaning of a bag of grain related to the Empress as allegorical personification of the state would be as emblem of the state as provider, in identification of the figure as an allegorical personification of nature, Venus Natura, as the abundance of nature itself as 'cornucopia', as emblem of the 'seeds' of things from which nature proceeds and from which it is composed. Both reference a secular and materialist view that may also identify the Empress as an allegorical personification of the City of Man in contrast to the Popesse as the City of God referencing Augustinian theology of Citizenship (of two types symbolised by Emperor and Pope) Love (VI) and Will (VII_Chariot).

Kwaw
 

jmd

I personally think the bag of grain makes great symbolic sense for many reasons - especially if one wants to connect her with the fecundity of the land, and as empress, her own fecundity may very well be so linked, in this case holding close to her womb the seeds that are to germinate, in a similar manner to the understanding as to the functions of the womb as earth in which the 'seed' of the emperor would germinate and grow.

What I remain unconvinced about is whether the depiction has lines that are those of a bag.

As Bat Chicken as presented, the lines can as easily, and to my eyes, perhaps biased, more easily, be seen as the folds of her dress.
 

kwaw

jmd said:
=As Bat Chicken as presented, the lines can as easily, and to my eyes, perhaps biased, more easily, be seen as the folds of her dress.

Well I, perhaps equally biased, do not find it that easy to see them as folds of her dress; le pendu too has shown the figure is more clearly related to other patterns of the Empress in which there is similar confusion of line and colours.

We are currently without sufficient evidence one way or the other.

I, without any claim as to it representing author~itical intent, read it as a bag of grain, and while I do not claim such as historical intent, I do claim there is no historical anachronism in reading it as such; (though I do believe there is something there meant to be represented).

And I will certainly use it as a memory devise for a whole lot of things that could not have been intended because they were not known at the time, as I use the cards as so many rooms in my own personal palace of memory into which I hook what I know and learn and am not restricted by whatever the author may have known ~ I cannot say nor intended, because perhaps they were intended within the constructs of a morally instructive or educational game to function also as memory devices.

Kwaw
 

kwaw

jmd said:
I personally think the bag of grain makes great symbolic sense for many reasons - especially if one wants to connect her with the fecundity of the land, and as empress, her own fecundity may very well be so linked, in this case holding close to her womb the seeds that are to germinate, in a similar manner to the understanding as to the functions of the womb as earth in which the 'seed' of the emperor would germinate and grow.

We have all come from heavenly seed; we all
Have the same father, and our mother earth
Receives from him the fertilizing showers.
So pregnant, she brings forth the shining grain,
The trees that make us glad, the race of men,
The generations of wild beasts, the food
By which they feed, increase, and multiply.
She is rightly called our mother.

(Lucretius De Rerum Natura II 991-998 trans., by Humphries)

Or as Leonard translates it:

Once more, we all from seed celestial spring,
To all is that same father, from whom earth,
The fostering mother, as she takes the drops
Of liquid moisture, pregnant bears her broods-
The shining grains, and gladsome shrubs and trees,
And bears the human race and of the wild
The generations all, the while she yields
The foods wherewith all feed their frames and lead
The genial life and propagate their kind;
Wherefore she owneth that maternal name,
By old desert. What was before from earth,
The same in earth sinks back, and what was sent
From shores of ether, that, returning home,
The vaults of sky receive...
 

Debra

Beautiful, thank you Kwaw.

Whether historically accurate or not, seeing the grain bag is certainly consistent with "beginner's eyes" and I like it.
 

kwaw

The Venus Shell and two types of Christian Caritas:

le pendu said:

The Scallop (as in the scallop shaped armrest decoration) is called the Venus shell. In paganism it was a symbol of death and rebirth, and was appropriated and transformed by Christian allegory into a symbol of the two types of caritas – to love god (upper shell of the bivalve, Venus Urania) and to love thy neighbour (bottom shell of bivalve, Venus Natura or Humanitas).

Quote:
“Therefore, let there be two Venuses in the World Soul, the first heavenly and second vulgar. Let both have love: the heavenly for contemplating divine Beauty, the vulgar for procreating the same in the Matter of the World. For such beauty as the former sees, the latter wishes to pass on as well as it can to the machine of the World. Or rather both are moved to procreate beauty, but each in its own wayh. The heavenly Venus strives through its intelligence to reproduce in itself as exactly as possible the beauty of the higher things; the vulgar Venus strives, through the fertility of its divine seeds, to reproduce in the Matter of the World the beauty which is divinely conceived within itself.

End quote from Ficino’s Commentary on Plato’s Symposium quoted on p. 114 of Michelangelo’s Medici Chapel: A New Interpretation by Edith Balas.

It was also the symbol of St. James, and also of pilgrimage:

Here down my wearied limbs I'll lay :
My buttoned staff, my weed of gray,
My palmer's hat, my scallop shell,
My cross, my cord, and all farewell!

Epitaph By Robert Heyrirk.

Kwaw
 

prudence

Thank you for this, kwaw.

That "umbrella" caught my eye, whether it is an intentional symbol or what have you...I do not know, but it certainly stood out for me. And does even more so in this close up image.