The Decanic Meanings Vs. the RWS Images

t.town.troy

Professor X said:
Have you ever seen a list of the decanic meanings that the Golden Dawn used to set up the pips. Its in Book T which is in Regardies Golden Dawn book as well as being on the internet. Crowley also put the list in his 777 book.

Yes.
But I believe the GD list has Sephirotic and "classic" fortunetelling elements, as well as decanic.
Maybe "the complete golden dawn system of magic" by Regardie has actual decan meanings.
Oh, and I had read the Mercury exalted in Aquarius in Snuffins' Thoth Companion. (So I guess he's wrong, not me

)

ETA:"the complete golden dawn system of magic" by Regardie does have them.
THE MAGICAL IMAGES OF THE DECANS - page 29.
"In the 2nd decan of Aquarius which is of Mercury, there ariseth a man arrayed like a king looking with pride and conceit on all around him. It is a decan of beauty, dominance, conceit, good manners and self-esteem, yet notwithstanding modest. "
So that's what the meaning of the decan for the six of swords is!

And finally:
"In the 3rd decan of Aquarius which is of Luna ascendeth a man with a small head clothed like a woman, having an old man with him. It is a decan of abundance and compliments, detection and affronts." for the seven of swords.
I added the magical images for comparison to the Liber T deck.

Professor X

Another meaning I have discovered for the 6 of Swords is that it also means
journey by water. That is in the Golden Dawn book on the Tarot.

sapienza

I know I'm coming in late to this thread but I've only just read it for the first time.

fferyllt said:
I read that Waite was more influenced by Etteilla's meanings than Crowley was. Even Mathers in his "The Tarot: A Short Treatis on Reading Cards" uses "envoy, messenger, voyage, travel" (Etteilla) to describe the 6 of Swords rather than the decans.

A good source for comparison of meanings from Etteilla, Mathers, Golden Dawn, and Waite is Huson's Mystical Origins of the Tarot.

I'd definitely recommend Huson's book. It is a fantastic reference which gives the decan info and Golden Dawn and Etteilla's meanings for each card. It was after reading his book that the RWS deck finally made sense to me. I still don't use it, but at least I get what it's trying to do. I found it interesting that in almost all the cards of the RWS you can find BOTH the GD meaning and Etteilla's meanings. In that way I think it's a clever deck. When you start looking for both it adds a whole new dimension to the deck and makes a lot of the stuff written about it seem rather wishy-washy....to put it nicely.

ravenest said:
I got tired of trying to nut out the RW and just used Thoth. IMO Thoth tends to avoid the 'fortune telling meaning'. In my time as a public reader I found some wanted the 'inner stuff'. They could hear a rave on the ... I'll say 'hermetic meaning' (but thats wrong) and draw their own conclusions to how it applied to them. others would look at me blank, so Id say ... you could be about to go on a long journey (or whatever). and they would be happy.

I found more and more people wanted, in public readings, this fortune telling stuff, so I eventually stopped doing it and now only read for friends who have a bit more insight into themselves.

I'm SO glad to read your thoughts here ravenest, I absolutely understand what you mean. I've experienced the same thing and am currently making a very similar decision regarding actually reading the cards for others.

Teheuti

Waite combined several sources in coming up with meanings for the Minor Arcana - Etteilla, Mathers, Robert Chambers' text on playing card meanings, GD which includes decans but also sephira+world/element and other things. The 6 of Swords also refers to the three murderers of Hiram Abiff as they attempted to escape across the sea. The Waite-Smith deck is a rich amalgam of these varying and often contradictory concepts, which Waite freely acknowledges in PKT.

Mary

t.town.troy

Teheuti said:
The 6 of Swords also refers to the three murderers of Hiram Abiff as they attempted to escape across the sea.

I never heard this connexion. What is the source for this? It makes a lot of sense though; (in general) swords - misfortune, six - having the 'travel by water' aspect.

ETA: I was going to add that those three ruffians names all have six letters, but one is seven. Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum.

Teheuti

t.town.troy said:
I never heard this connexion. What is the source for this? It makes a lot of sense though;

I've been researching the sources for the RWS Minor Arcana for many years. Swords and the Hiram Abiff story as told in the Master Mason Ceremony fit too exactly to be mere chance.

ravenest

Huh?

Teheuti said:
Swords and the Hiram Abiff story as told in the Master Mason Ceremony fit too exactly to be mere chance.

Whatever do you mean? "Swords" and the story fit. What about swords fit ... something particular or just the general idea about swords?

Wot an unusual statement.

sapienza

ravenest, I assumed that Teheuti meant the actual RWS images on the swords suit cards matched the story, rather than swords in general.

Mary, are there any similar stories or ideas that link with the other suits? I had though I read somewhere (maybe by you) that there was link to the Grail myth in there somewhere.

Teheuti

sapienza said:
ravenest, I assumed that Teheuti meant the actual RWS images on the swords suit cards matched the story, rather than swords in general.

Mary, are there any similar stories or ideas that link with the other suits? I had though I read somewhere (maybe by you) that there was link to the Grail myth in there somewhere.

I've written about it on my blog (see profile) - search 'Grail' on my blog page. The Swords story isn't mentioned there as I haven't gotten around to writing it up - but I have presented it at a couple of conferences.