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Turning the Chart - questions on other people's health


Following Lee's question about his brother, and the issue of turning the chart, I have had a re-read of Lilly. On the question 'If the absent party be alive or dead?' He counsels strongly to be careful in choosing the right significator for the other party but to the effect that Lee got it right - brother takes third house.

Lilly refers to the cusp of the absent person's house as his 'ascendant' an obvious reference to turning the chart. He then judges on the basis of whether the person's significator is 'either in the fourth or eighth either from his own ascendant or of the Figure (chart), that configuration is oneargument that man or woman enquired after is deceased'

Note 'one argument' i.e. it's not conclusive in itself.

The same applies to being in the twelfth house either of the chart or from the third and in opposition or square from a malefic or with the Sun unfortunate or afflicted

Being in the sixth of the chart or from the third is a sign of sickness as is a square or opposition from Lord 6.

Any aspect to the benefics will ameliorate the harm, strong essential dignity is likely to ameliorate the harm too.


He concludes by saying

'I do only observer if the significator of the absent be strong and separated from a fortune and in good house, the absent lives, if he was afflicted or lately in square or opposition of the infortunes he was perplexed or suffered much misery, according to the nature of the house whence afflicted but I judge him not dead unless together with that mischance the lord of the eighth do unfortunate him'

I think you would need several indicators of death or sickness before you leapt to that conclusion - simply being in an unfortunate place is a testimony but it's not a sufficient one to draw an adverse conclusion. Remember Frawley's injunction about the 'default' answer.

In such a question the default must be that the person is alive and well, and this will only be overturned if there are several indicators of death or illness.
Top   #91
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Thanks Minderwiz. So, do you think there is enough in the chart, between my brother's 8th House ruler being in the 3rd House, and the square between Saturn and Mercury, to indicate death?
Top   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee View Post
Thanks Minderwiz. So, do you think there is enough in the chart, between my brother's 8th House ruler being in the 3rd House, and the square between Saturn and Mercury, to indicate death?
...I would also note that Mercury is lord of the 8th house in both the turned and unturned charts.
Top   #93
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Reading for Queen of Wands


The chart was cast for the moment I understood your question, last night. As you can see from the attached chart it has Mars Retrograde and exactly conjunct the Ascendant, Whilst Mars is in his own Terms, that is still not a good sign for the question, especially as Mars is accidentally Lord 8.

Your significator is Mercury, on the cusp of the fifth house and combust (and going further into combustion). Mercury is in his own Terms and is not badly placed by House but the combustion is a serious weakness. Combustion normally means that the planet cannot be seen, but by the same token it is blinded by the Sun. It's placement suggests that you see the contest as something of a bit of fun, to be enjoyed, rather than a serious competition, though Saturn ruling the fifth does suggest that things are more serious than you think in this contest.

Contest horaries normally assign the seventh to the opposition, so the rest of the competitors are signified by Jupiter, ruler of the Pisces Descendant. The good news for you is that Jupiter is a lot less serious than Saturn, so if you 'open' your eyes and take things a bit more seriously for the competition then you have a chance. Jupiter is placed badly in the eighth House and is slow, having just turned direct (though that also implies that it will get stronger in the future (hopefully not strong enough quickly enough). As well as being Peregrine Jupiter happens to be in the Terms of Mercury, so your significator is stronger than that of the opposition and better placed. The supporters of the opposition are shown by the eighth house ruler - in this case Mars which is on your Ascendant. By supporters I mean someone or somebody who helps them, such as a trainer, or coach or simply a book or manual - something they rely on to do better. However on the cusp of the Ascendant Mars has some control over you, either directly or indirectly so their supporters are well positioned.

Your supporters are signified by the Lord of the Second House, which is Venus. Venus is poorly placed in the sixth but is in its exaltation. You have a better 'coach/trainer/manual' than the competition but it's not as well placed by any means as that of the competitors. So for example they may have not been taught well but they have enough knowledge to capitalise on it, whereas you are better trained but might not be able to make the most of it.

So will you win? There is no applying aspect between significators, but in this case we don't need one - the contest will take place on March 1. The outcome of the horary is decided by relative strength, and in that regard you are slightly stronger than the opposition but bear in mind Mars afflicts the Ascendant (You) and is naturally malefic and in this case Lord 8 and the supporter of the opposition. You ought to have a good chance but from this I don't think that chance will be good enough. You won't win. You ought to do moderately well though - you won't disgrace yourself by any means.

Now I've cast that for the date and time of my understanding of your question. There's a good case for casting it for March 1 and the time of the contest. However as there are many competitors, and there's no guarantee the time of the contest is when you actually get to 'perform' I think the current chart is a good personal indicator of your chances.
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Top   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee View Post
Thanks Minderwiz. So, do you think there is enough in the chart, between my brother's 8th House ruler being in the 3rd House, and the square between Saturn and Mercury, to indicate death?
Hi Lee,

I'll take a look at the chat and let you know but Astraea may also have some ideas on that
Top   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Hi Lee,

I'll take a look at the chat and let you know but Astraea may also have some ideas on that
Hi Minderwiz, I do have some ideas about it, but didn't want to hijack the thread. I'll just post my thoughts as briefly as possible, addressed to Lee.

I am inclined to agree with your assessment of your brother's condition, Lee. Mercury not only rules your brother's 8th house, but his 6th - and as you say, Mercury is in the 3rd house (your brother's 1st), within orb of combustion* and applying closely to a square with his significator Saturn.

Although you as the querent are indeed signified by Mars, you are not the focus of the chart or a primary player in the question; so we can read Mars purely in his own right, in your brother's 8th house, peregrine and retrograde. There is what is termed a generosity here - which is basically reception without an aspect - involving the same planets (Mercury and Mars) who were in reception in your employment chart; but their trine is now separating, which throws Mars back into peregrine status in Virgo, without an applying positive aspect to save him.

Mars in questions related to physical health issues signifies acute situations, inflammation and fever (either of body or mind) and sometimes violence (ranging anywhere from an encounter with an assailant to surgery). Situated in Virgo in your brother's 8th house, Mars might suggest digestive/assimilative/metabolic issues and/or substance ingestion (all conditions associated with Virgo) as contributors to 8th-house conditions; or perhaps a recent surgical operation or other invasive event. Mercury in the 3rd house of the chart (your brother's 1st), moving into combustion, is another indication of inflammation, since the Sun is hot and dry. This could even refer to a more abstract inflammatory process affecting your brother's health status, i.e. hot-headedness or poor impulse control. The ruler of your brother's 8th house in his 1st suggest some kind of self-involvement in whatever has happened.

Likewise in the unturned chart, Mercury rules the 8th house - and with Mercury in the 3rd (your brother), the message points in the same general direction.

The most worrisome aspect is the close unobstructed applying square between the main significators, Saturn (your brother) and Mercury (Lord 8 in both turned and unturned charts). And there are other indications that support that primary finding.

The 4th house is associated with the end of life, the final outcome of a question, and the grave. In the unturned chart, Jupiter (traditional ruler of Pisces, the sign on the cusp of the unturned 4th) is located in the unturned 6th house of health, having recently separated from an opposition to your brother's significator, Saturn - suggesting recent illness or exacerbation of a chronic condition. Your brother's 4th house, i.e. 4th from the 3rd, is ruled by Venus, found here in the unturned 4th and soon to be conjoined by the Moon (ruler of the unturned 9th of long journeys). Note that the Moon is actually separating from a conjunction with Jupiter - the Morinus program makes it look as if the Moon is at 1 degree Pisces, but that's because the first 1 in the number 11 (the Moon's actual degree) is obscured by the black ink of the cusp.

Even in horaries for which we turn the chart, the original chart (known as the radix, or root) must still be considered, and all testimonies weighed. And even though you might think you have not used a turned chart in your analysis, derived houses are exactly that - so you've actually done a deeper analysis of the chart thank you think!

On the day you asked this question, your brother's significator (Saturn) and the ruler of his 8th (Mercury) were closely applying to a square, and the Moon (general co-significator and timer in horaries) was soon to conjoin Venus (significator of the end of the matter in the unturned chart). Saturn is in the sign of his exaltation, but the final degree indicates a critical, pivotal situation; it's as if his luck were running out. So I am inclined to think that your brother was very near death at the time of the horary (cast on January 26) - and might actually have passed by now. Cardinal signs typically involve the shortest timeframes, and in this chart the main significators - Mercury and Saturn - are in the cardinal signs Capricorn and Libra, respectively.




* Traditional horary astrologers sometimes argue about whether Mars and Mercury can be harmed by combustion, since astronomically Mercury is always close to the Sun, and Mars is naturally hot and dry and thus - so the thinking goes - immune to the Sun's combustion. Other astrologers think that combustion is actually worse for Mercury and Mars, since it heats and dries them excessively. There are equal testimonies for both points of view in the ancient texts.

You will often find that the chart will lead you, and here I am inclined to think that Mercury within the orb of combustion would not bode well for your brother's vitality.
Top   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astraea View Post
Hi Minderwiz, I do have some ideas about it, but didn't want to hijack the thread..
Astraea. I can't think of a better person to 'hijack' the thread (as long as you don't fly it to Cuba )


I don't disagree with anything Astraea says in her closely argued and meticulous analysis. Saturn is strong in essential dignity but everything else is against him. The issue really is has your brother the strength to resist an awful situation that he finds himself in?

The only rays of hope I can offer, are that Saturn effectively in the twelfth House and that might alternatively mean prison or hospital, both twelfth house institutions. Obviously hospital has connotations of a health risk - a serious one from the chart. However, hospital is at least the best place to be if there is such a risk.;

The other silim ray of hope is that Mars and Mercury (you and Lord 8) are in a mutual reception by exaltation, so death may be unwilling to strike your brother.

Not much I agree. Incidentally Saturn is conjunctr the new fangled, so called arabic part of imprisonment, which I don't use but does seem to echo the prison possibility.

I hope I'm right and Astraea is wrong for your and your brother's sake. But I can't fault her logic and reasoning.
Top   #97
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Immense thanks to Astraea and Minderwiz for taking such an in-depth look at the chart! I remember reading a quote, I think it was by Maggie Hyde, writing about Dennis Elwell that he made horary charts "dance with radicality," and now I think I have an inkling of what she was referring to.

I will certainly spend some time studying both your interpretations, and also spend some time going over Minderwiz's material in this thread and in the "Traditional Terms" thread. After going through these threads and making some initial attempts at charts, I feel like I'm much better prepared to tackle some of the literature than I was.
Top   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee View Post
After going through these threads and making some initial attempts at charts, I feel like I'm much better prepared to tackle some of the literature than I was.
That's wonderful, Lee!
Top   #99
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In fact I copied and pasted Minderwiz's instructive posts in the two threads and created a document which I've loaded on my Kindle for easy studying on the go!
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