A Pre-Tarot Papessa in Padova?

Teheuti

I found quite a few of the images here, though not the one we want.

www.superstock.com/

Search on 'Palazzo della Ragione' and then click on "show me more" under one of the pictures that is similar.

Especially check out The Magical Rite 263-552
and The Pilgrim 263-554

The upper registers appear here: www.pd.astro.it/MOSTRA/G0000SAL.HTM
 

Scion

Hey Ross,

So the first of my purchases arrived: a beautiful guide to the Salone with big fold out images and maps etc.

Annoyingly the image of your near-Papess is still small, but it is identified as a scene of "Benedizione." So your three virtues may be a good guess. in fact the 4th strata of theological material directy below it is labeled "Virtu Teologali: Speranza, Carita, etc)" So it may be a mundane scene illustrating the theological principal.

I have another book with larger plates coming, so hopefullI'll have something more substantive to scan & post.

S
 

Ross G Caldwell

Scion said:
Hey Ross,

So the first of my purchases arrived: a beautiful guide to the Salone with big fold out images and maps etc.

Annoyingly the image of your near-Papess is still small, but it is identified as a scene of "Benedizione." So your three virtues may be a good guess. in fact the 4th strata of theological material directy below it is labeled "Virtu Teologali: Speranza, Carita, etc)" So it may be a mundane scene illustrating the theological principal.

I have another book with larger plates coming, so hopefullI'll have something more substantive to scan & post.

S


Great Scion! Do you have a scanner? And do you know some basic Photoshop?

I haven't got either of my books yet - the Barzon was already sold, the Mueller hasn't arrived, and I haven't got any confirmation about the bank transfer for the last yet.

What are the titles you found?

Ross
 

Rosanne

Ross G Caldwell said:
I was looking for the source for the story that Francesco Sforza refused a triumphal car for his official entry into possession of Milan on March 25, 1450, .........
From A History of Milan under Sforza by Cecelia M Ady 1907

On Sunday, 22nd March,1 all was ready, and Francesco rode to the Porta Ticinese, accompanied by his wife, his brother Alessandro and his six-year-old son Galeazzo Maria.
Here the chief citizens were gathered in order to escort the new
Duke to the Duomo, beneath a magnificent white baldacchino,
embroidered with gold. Francesco, however, declined this
honour, saying that such outward marks of dignity were the
superstitions of kings. Riding at the side of the baldacchino,
Francesco made his way to the Piazza del Duomo, where a
platform had been erected facing the Cathedral. The ceremony opened with an oration by Guarnerio Castiglione, a former minister of the Visconti. Then, clad in the white coronation robes of his predecessors, Sforza was solemnly proclaimed Duke of Milan. Seven of the leading citizens invested
him with the ducal insignia. Gaspare da Vimercate bore the sceptre, Antonio Trivulzio the standard, Pietro Pusterla the sword. A Visconti, a Borromeo, a Lampugnano and a Marliano presented respectively the cap, the collar, the cloak and the seal. Two representatives from each of the six gates
tendered the keys of the city. Twelve more swore fealty, and
the Piazza rang with shouts of "Viva il Duca".

Great read.....
~Rosanne
Added:
The date of the entrance of the new duke and duchess in Milan is disputed: March 25 or March 22. Francesco and Bianca refused the triumphal wagon (they called it ''superstizione da re'', "kings' superstition"), instead reaching the Duomo riding on a couple of horses. It was the first time that a duke's title had been awarded by the citizens of the city.
Tri-atlas quote
Note March 25th Italy 1450 was a Sunday and New Years Day under the Julian Calendar....It follows that thew 22nd was a Thursday.
 

blackroseivy

I find this thread fascinating & will be eager to learn more if/when more is forthcoming. :)
 

Scion

Ross G Caldwell said:
Great Scion! Do you have a scanner? And do you know some basic Photoshop?

What are the titles you found?
I do and a bit... As soon as the holidays are put to bed I['ll have some time to futz.

This first book that came is is Il Palazzo della Ragione in Padova: A cura di Pier Luigi Fantelli e Franca Pellegrini.
Ecco: Guida del Palazzo della Ragione / ideale completamento della esposizione "Il Salone mostra se stesso".
Con ricostruzioni grafiche e fotografiche. Con una bibliografia generale (1262 - 1988).
Author: Alvarez, Giulio Bresciani / Lamberto Briseghella / Vittorio Dal Piaz / Pier Luigi Fantelli / Graziella Federici Vescovini / Franca Pellegrini e Adrinao Verdi.

A terrific, well-organized guide that seems to be designed with cultural tourism in mind.

The Barzon is also on the way... and another midcentury thing from Italy. I'll report the title and details as soon as it arrives, as I'm none too clear on it myself. :bugeyed: And I'm still trying to find a copy of Palazzo della ragione a Padova: Vita e arte sotto la volta degli astri by Maria Beatrice Rigobello

And I found a plan for a survey you might want to look at: http://cipa.icomos.org/fileadmin/papers/olinda/99c314.pdf

More soon.

S
 

Ross G Caldwell

Scion said:
I do and a bit... As soon as the holidays are put to bed I['ll have some time to futz.

This first book that came is is Il Palazzo della Ragione in Padova: A cura di Pier Luigi Fantelli e Franca Pellegrini.
Ecco: Guida del Palazzo della Ragione / ideale completamento della esposizione "Il Salone mostra se stesso".
Con ricostruzioni grafiche e fotografiche. Con una bibliografia generale (1262 - 1988).
Author: Alvarez, Giulio Bresciani / Lamberto Briseghella / Vittorio Dal Piaz / Pier Luigi Fantelli / Graziella Federici Vescovini / Franca Pellegrini e Adrinao Verdi.

A terrific, well-organized guide that seems to be designed with cultural tourism in mind.

The Barzon is also on the way... and another midcentury thing from Italy. I'll report the title and details as soon as it arrives, as I'm none too clear on it myself. :bugeyed: And I'm still trying to find a copy of Palazzo della ragione a Padova: Vita e arte sotto la volta degli astri by Maria Beatrice Rigobello

And I found a plan for a survey you might want to look at: http://cipa.icomos.org/fileadmin/papers/olinda/99c314.pdf

More soon.

S

That's cool Scion! I'm still waiting for the three I ordered (including Barzon), and haven't found the Fantelli either.

BookFinder.com is my usual stop. Putting "palazzo della ragione padova" (specifying language "italian" of course) brings up six books, some of which are too expensive, others I'm not sure of the value.

If you do have a few minutes, PLEASE post whatever information you can from the books about the image in question (quotes, images). Is the "Papessa" really too small that a good scan wouldn't confirm or deny some of our suspicions?

Ross
 

Ross G Caldwell

This one looks promising -

BOZZOLATO,GIAMPIERO. TENENTI,ALBERTO. BERTI,ENRICO. - Il Palazzo della Ragione a Padova. Dalle pitture di Giotto agli Affreschi del '400 +Gli affreschi+ Panoramica degli affreschi.
Indici a cura di A.Vedovato. Roma, 1992-1993, Ist.Poligrafico e Zecca dello Stato- Archivi di Stato Coll.Arte Medievale e Moderna. cm.24x34, pp.140, 25 ill.bn.nt.+85 tavv.ft.+4 tavv.più volte pieg.ft.in cartella, br.copp.figg.a col.in custodia. 2 voll.+una cartella,
EUR 102.00 [Appr.: US$ 138.72 | £UK 91 | JP¥ 12540]
http://www.antiqbook.com/books/bookinfo.phtml?nr=361668056

... but I'm not willing to pay that much on a hunch.

Vol. III, consisting of four plates, is available by itself,
http://www.choosebooks.com/displayBookDetails.do?itemId=19363992&ref=bf

but without the text, and with doubtlessly very small pictures, it might not be very helpful.

Ross
 

conversus

Here is a black and white image I found while using ArtStore. Perhaps it will help tide us over till after the Nativity Hols.

PADUA.jpeg



Cheers:
CED
 

Ross G Caldwell

Thanks conversus! Welcome to the conversation.

This looks like a real photograph. Now we can see that it appears to be a mitre, rather than a papal tiara. The only way I can explain the off-center vertical band is to think the mitre/head is turned slightly.

And what is she doing with her right hand? It looks like she's kind of holding her belly, as if pregnant.

I'm still going for an allegory of "Faith", but who knows?

Now I'm looking for information on "mitred abbesses" and the like.

There were religious women with a lot of secular power, especially in the Holy Roman Empire, called "Princess-Abbesses" (Reichsäbtissinen).

Of Mitres, Mitred Abbesses and Clerical Kings
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/apologia/vpost?id=927538

"There were comparatively few mitred abbesses as opposed to Reichsäbtissinen; I know of only two for certain--Las Huelgas in Spain, Conversano in Italy. There were at probably quite a few others, such as Nonnburg in Austria, whose abbess may have been mitred at one time if I recall correctly, and wore a ceremonial crown as late as the 1920s. Their rights to partial pontificalia date back to a time when the mitre was itself comparatively new, and confined to the pope and cardinals. Shortly thereafter we find a veritable surfeit of mitred privileges granted to notable foreign bishops, abbots, cathedral canons (whose use actually predates that of abbots, as in the case of the chapter of Besançon that dates back to 1051), and even temporal rulers."

Bear in the mind the author of this article seems to be a conservative Roman Catholic.

There is a chronological list of hundreds of them here -
http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/womeninpower/Princess-Abbesses.htm

No pictures of mitred Reichsäbtissinen though.

Very nice picture, conversus.

Ross