Is this stuff necessary or was it all piled on by those kooky Golden Dawn fellers?

Just for the Hell of it I would like to point out that I read Tarot by a system of my own creation, detailed in my book. When people read my book they are learning something about "tarot reading,' but in actuality I am training people to 'use' my system.

So, in reality, I have done exactly what 'them kooky Golden Dawn fellers' did: found something to base my ideas on and mold it to fit the cards (or mold the images on the cards to fit my system.) The GD thought their stuff was wonderful. I think my book is wonderful. 12,000 readers decided my book was worth a look. Fifty years from now, someone somewhere will be saying 'What was in THIS guy's head?' while another contingent decides that my way of doing things 'must' the the 'one, true way' because it makes so much sense to them!

And 50 years from now someone will be starting a thread on Aeclectic that begins " Is this stuff necessary or was it piled on by that kooky Tarotbear feller?"

tarotbear said:

And 50 years from now someone will be starting a thread on Aeclectic that begins " Is this stuff necessary or was it piled on by that kooky Tarotbear feller?"

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You go, Tarotbear!!

tarotbear said:

So, in reality, I have done exactly what 'them kooky Golden Dawn fellers' did: found something to base my ideas on and mold it to fit the cards (or mold the images on the cards to fit my system.)

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laura_borealis said:

I see it as the occultists using tarot as a key to information that is deep and meaningful.....

To me, the big problem is not what symbolism is added. It's not WHEN in the history of tarot it was added. The problem is those people who claimed -- and still claim -- that their particular symbolic system is the One True Way. (Crowley is an exception -- he told his students to question everything, even and especially Crowley. )

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The only point that really matters, eh... That we each take it upon ourself to devise whatever system gives the most insightful and accurate readings, using whatever tools we are comfortable with that happen to be available to us at any given time, yes?... All good, eh...

hey! :'D
he made that video response to a question I asked XD haha

I feel famous <3


also , some people say , and I cant quote nor do I remember the book, that the peopl who made the first tarot decks were somehow hiding knowledge in the cards , because they couldnt openly write it in books due to church and whatnot , so , who knows ?

I think that this sort of systemic tarot stuff is very useful for when your intuition flounders. I learned tarot very systematically--astrology/kabbalah/etc. But, I find that I have the clearest insights when something about the cards just 'speak' to me. And you can't take a one size fits all template and say, "Oh, you're having trouble with your husband today because of a call his mother made about your car." There's no astrological analogy to that kind of sudden realization which often comes from a source other than a systemic understanding of the tarot. But, I find that I'm not a hugely intuitive reader and oftentimes I do need more abstract guidances to get me to the meaning of the cards. I do use numerology, astrology, kabbalah, etc to see patterns--especially when I can't see the meaning right off the bat.

Is it really useful? Yes! It helps a lot!

But is it necessary? No, but it does depend on what kind of reader you are. I know people who cannot read intuitively at all. They can still produce amazing readings. But oftentimes they need something more structured to lead them to their insights.

I think one 'point' that is always missing from all these GD and Waite discussions is that somewhere in every book discussion about them is the concept that there were 'blinds' they deliberately put in to confuse the novice, and that there is 'all sorts of cool hidden knowledge' in the cards ... and no one bothered to record what they were anywhere to be found, so how do we even know those are true statements?

It's like you're eating chocolate ice cream and your little brother wants a taste, and so to discourage him you say 'This isn't chocolate ice cream - it's baby shit!' Perhaps someone asked Crowley 'What's that blue thig-a-ma-jig' in the corner of this card?' Crowley had no clue and says 'The Mysteries are NEVER revealed to the UN-initiated!' Someone put that in a book and now everyone in history 'believes' there are hidden agendas, secret maps, or the location of Amelia Earhart's plane hidden in their tarot deck - if only they could crack the code.

Code-schmode.

I'm inclined to believe (after reading this thread) that the GD added all this stuff to make themselves look 'cool', even if some of it is based on real knowledge that is documented. They created their own special clique to exclude others and created their own 'mystique' to go with it. (I'll bet most members of the GD were VERY unpopular in high school and created the GD to have their own way to exclude others!)

^ Tarotbear, that's great!

I don't feel these things are necessary either, but I do believe they add a great deal; but only if one wants to go that far. I'm a symbolism nut so I love reading and studying these things (though I admit I hae no desire to investigate Thelema), but I don't necessarily use them in readings. Still, knowledge comes in in unexpected ways sometimes, so I will not discount any possible influence!

tarotbear said:

......I'm inclined to believe (after reading this thread) that the GD added all this stuff to make themselves look 'cool', even if some of it is based on real knowledge that is documented. They created their own special clique to exclude others and created their own 'mystique' to go with it. (I'll bet most members of the GD were VERY unpopular in high school and created the GD to have their own way to exclude others!)

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I'm sure there were all types of people in the GD. Some were certainly ego motivated, others perhaps not. There were some undeniably good things about it. Women were admitted on an equal basis with men, and, according to my understanding, the dues did not exclude those who were poor. The Irish poet/politician Yeats certainly did not need any ego boost, nor did Maude Gonne, Florence Farr, or the various English writers, such as Arthur Machen or Evelyn Underhill. Certain egocentric leaders apparently caused the splintering of the GD, but the fact that these people were flawed has no significance as regards the contribution of their organization to Tarot or the occult.

Fascinating thread. I got a lot out of reading Kaballah, and Golden Dawn stuff early in my learning. Book of Thoth was gibberish to me then. Now (it's scary...) when I read Crowley, I halfway understand it.

Whether this stuff was there "at first" doesn't make any difference. The truths it points to can be tapped by anyone, meditating on nature, cards, their own navels, anywhere in the world at any point in time. And then spoken of, and from there, labels, (words) come in, and systems from there, and the confusion begins.

Look, Quantuum physics wasn't There First. But the laws and mysteries of which it speaks were. And those were tapped by Brahmins and mystics thousands of years ago. The Rig Veda and the books on Quantuum physics are closed to me...like the Book of Thoth was (and mostly still is). Cabalah is one such "book" too, and while i have enough basic understanding to see how it's saying the same thing as these other systems, is it neccessary? No.

Reading tarot cards (divination) is a different thing than reading and meditating on the occult philosophies that various thinkers through time have hung on the tarot. Does the one serve the other? Yes. The latter, especially, informs the former. It's like reading one of those books, say by Rachel Pollack...that brings in all the greek myths...that's a CORRESPONDENCE. The author is making a connection..."hey, that's like this over here in this part of the world, and that myth's partly a symbolic picture story that partly points out this thing or the other...." When we pull a tarot card, we draw a correspondence between it and something that has happened, is happening or might happen. Connections. When these happen, our little pathways in the brain open, and intutiion grows and we are expanded as beings. So correspondences are essential...if we don't make correspondences and connections, we might as well go play Tarocci or Tarock or "go fish".

Are all of "those" systems neccessary? No. Will they expand you? Yes!

Mallah said:

When we pull a tarot card, we draw a correspondence between it and something that has happened, is happening or might happen. Connections. When these happen, our little pathways in the brain open, and intutiion grows and we are expanded as beings. So correspondences are essential...if we don't make correspondences and connections, we might as well go play Tarocci or Tarock or "go fish".

Are all of "those" systems neccessary? No. Will they expand you? Yes!

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Yes brain maps light up. More maps better the image passed onto the mind and conscious awareness.