Which is more important as a Social Mask the Ascendant or the 10th/11th house?

Darth MI

Modern astrologers love o emphasize the Ascendant as a facade used in public and how it has nothing to do with a person's personality.

To the point that so many long time veterans of astrology (exempting those who practise the traditional systems or foreign systems like Vedic) go as far as saying the Ascendant is how you act around your friends and public settings in general (such as work, the train station, etc).

Now I got a problem with this notion. First off if the Ascendant is supposed to be your "social mask" how does this go in with energies in houses that naturally deal with public life? I mean say you have Scorpio as your Ascendant but all your strong planets are in 11th house. Would you still remain secretive and even seemingly creepy when you'r eat school talking to your acquintances and friends? I thought Sun in 11th house means you emphasize friendships so much as an essential need?

Lets take it a step further and add in the 10th house. A stereotypical trait of Capricorn AScendant is that in public they are hard workers. Thing is I read the chart of a few Cappy Ascs had major planets in their 10th HOUSE. This is where my inspiration for this thread came from. Most astrologers atributed these clients to being hard workers due to Cappy Asc making them form a stern social mask and I began to get confused as I read their charts. Mars is in the 10th hosue of one client, isn't this what is making her so workaholic? I mean her birth time isn't precise and she gave me another one from a relative also at her birth which gave her Aquarius Asc instead and her Mars is still in 10th house.

In addition what about the other houses? I mean just because they deal with other parts of your life doesn't mean you really showed your true nature of a person to other strangers. I mean if someone has Aquarius Asc but his fifth hosue is packed in with lots of planets including the sun..... Aquarius is often stated to avoid having kids and even hate having kids. But wouldn't that delay an Aquarius's 5th house effects in public? The person who I am referring too, he loves kids so much that he even horseplays with KIDS he never knew before and just met AT THE MALL and plays with babies evertime he sees them. According to the social mask theory acclaimed by modern astrologers, heshouldn't be friendly to kids he just met because they are strangers and he has Aquarius Asc.

WHat about strangers visting your home? Astrologers cannot believe I have Scorpio Asc because I am so friendly and rather attached to my home especially family heirlooms. Some of them attempted to guess me as being Cancer Asc because I was being so homely in fron tof them. But my 4th house has a stellium of Mars, Saturn, and Venus. Is my Scorpio Asc being replaced instead by my 4th house as my social mask?

Or about going to Church? WOuldn't it make more sense to look at the 9th house for indicates to waht their social mask be during mass?

I'm not even taking in situational factors. He may be charmy to girls but is it really because of Libra Asc? Or is it because the girls are gorgeous ones?

I myself will use one example. I am normally calm and quiet but if you ut me in a football stadium, people often noticed me as being so **** loud and obnoxious. My friends all tell me this nd I even got into a few scuffles with some strangers during the last game because I was bashing their favorite time. Nothing like Scorpio Asc and nothing in my 5th house indicates me acting wild during sport. Nor does my Mars give any clue to why I act this way. But I ******* LOVE football, its one of my life's passion. I'm not the only one, a lot of football fans normally known to be polite suddenly become roaring fans during the superbowl to the point they throw food out of excitement all over the stadium and I even remember some games being in other people's homes where items were broken because we all got o riled up and throwing around the remote and such due to out team winning?

My brother has Lbra Ascendant and genrally acts like a Libra in public but when he is int he military barracks (and AMONG STRANGERS in the base; some who just recently as a week or two ago ere assigned to my brother's unit) he can be quite aggressive to the point of being a rbaggart and even going into as scuffle (note: with people who he odesn't even know the names off). It my be his tenth house Mars but at the same time as a member of a military family I have too many stories to tell about how aggressive people can be when in their uniforms-yet remain so polite when they are outside the base and dining at Mcdonalds.

Don't even let me bring in planets. Wouldn't someone with a mighty Saturn be so disciplined they avoid blabbering their mouths and that is why they are quiet in public (not because they have Scorpio Ascendant)?

So which is most important in determining a person's social mask?

I think the emphasis of Ascendant is so overblown in modern astrology. I would go as far as saying its social cues and the situation at hand that play a much bigger role in how a person would act among strangers than anything astrology relate
 

Minderwiz

You're becoming polemical again!! :)

If you're looking for serious answers to your question, you need to know when to stop. You have a good question in asking whether certain houses might modify our view of the interpretation of the Ascendant. If you had stopped at that point, you might get some serious responses and it would be interesting to see what they were. Some of the rest of your post might have value in terms of follow up to the answers.

As it is you end up in a rather intemperate way, which can raise hackles and people don't respond. Try being gentle :)

Now to answer your question, or at least start the ball rolling:

The eleventh house says nothing about your personality, it does say something about your friends and sponsors. It may tell us how or why they choose to help you, or even why they choose not to help you, if that were the case. But it is them, that is described, not you.

The tenth is the house of your Praxis, or Action and your reputation. For most people this tends to be related to career but it could be related to other social actions, such as charity work, etc It tells us something about how well you succeed (or have the potential to succeed). It might tell us something about the way in which you carry out those actions. Most likely though is that it might tell us something about the focus of our career or actions.

Thus your favourite, Adolph Hitler, has the ruler of his tenth in the fourth house, the house of our homeland. Hitler's career was clearly focussed on his homeland and it's place in the world.

Shirley Temple had the ruler of the tenth in the fifth. Her career was associated with children, not only through being a child actress and despite going into politics and diplomacy, it is as a 'child' that her reputation is based.

Interestingly Valens associates the public mask we wear with the Moon because she signifies the general citizenry.
 

Ronia

I believe at some point it's called "trolling" and is against the rules.

It was on purpose that I wrote before that the Asc i s a mask "if desired". To add to this, a social mask is what most of us wear, indeed. Very few of us wear our hearts on the sleeves and are open to interpretation to anyone and everyone at first sight. The 10/11, as Minderwiz said, have aboslutely nothing to do with masks whatsoever, so the rest of this whole is irrelevant. I'm afraid I am straight forward due to my Scorpio Sun which, contrary to your statement, is not secretive, when it's not about what needs to remain secret. LOL I've noticed that you often declare some traits as if they are written in stone which they are not, nor do they necessarily ring true to the signs you assign them to.
 

MoonQueen

In Modern Astrology im a Sagittarius Rising Uranus in the 1st , i feel the way my style is could very well be Uranus like and sagg like too yes. I am friendly and could be supportive inspiring etc. but i am very private and secretive ! And my 11th 12th house is In Scorpio Plus Pluto also in my 11th house . So i could be very weary in letting people in and distrust so much!! Funny thing is in Vedic im Scorpio Asc! I always get comments about my strong dark eyes and being mysterious in the way my eyes look and give off. So i think how Minder Wiz explained to me Asc. Is more based on the body and looks ? :)

I also read somewhere. Your Asc is the first impression you give out to the world your mask. And the 12 house is your shadow side and what you hide since it is the 12 th house its buried away from the public eye. I dont know if i make sense but in my own little world its making more sense to me :D
 

blackandthemoon

Just my two cents but I don't believe that the ascendant is just your "social mask". I am an Aquarius sun in 4th and capricorn moon in 3rd and my rising is Scorpio and I feel those three things very strongly in my personality. However, with my rising it kind of sneaks up on me and seems heightened in social situations but it is ALWAYS there.
 

blackandthemoon

I should also add that my Pluto is Scorpio in 1st as well so it could be why I feel it more.
 

AsheSkyler

With six of my signs in Capricorn, my Ascendant (Gemini) is powerless to mask the amount of sheer stubbornness and anti-social qualities I have. It can soften the blow and make me a little friendly, but in the end I'm still going to be a grumpy stick-in-the-mud. :p
 

Emma313

The rising sign is the way you approach and attack things, its something you cannot help although its the first house I do believe it becomes unconscious.. The 10th house/MC sign is more of a natural talent, gift which you both aspire to and have achieved, lifelong, whether you know it or not.

Just my two cents.
 

Emma313

With six of my signs in Capricorn, my Ascendant (Gemini) is powerless to mask the amount of sheer stubbornness and anti-social qualities I have. It can soften the blow and make me a little friendly, but in the end I'm still going to be a grumpy stick-in-the-mud. :p


Very interesting that, seeing as Capricorn is related to Saturn and all societal stuff/validation/ authority/order. My brother is a Capricorn and I can just see this, He is sooo critical of all that is wrong in society and shuts himself off /slags off anything he considers rubbish and false. But if you have some Aquarius or Uranus energy that happens. Used to be hurt by Capricorn types but they're wonderful characters,full of wisdom, though can be harsher than Scorpio in that Scorpio massages realitys hardships whereas Capricorn will constantly remind you. Still both are kind folk.