The Lovers or 2 of cups?

Thirteen said:

Well, that's the 6/Cups, right? Nostalgia, to some extent, but also "known joy." I don't think it's any more pointless than casting our minds back to happy moments in childhood, or the times we spend with friends during our teen years ("Remember that one evening we drove around town till dawn, talking and listening to music? That was the best!").

I mean, happy memories are happy memories; when we're not feeling so good, they can make us smile and feel better. That doesn't seem pointless to me. Nor counterproductive unless (1) they end up making you feel sad and miserable because you're not with that person any more, or (2), unless you are comparing a current relationship to this old one; there's no way any current relationship is going to live up to memories you've polished and elevated.

I guess what I'm saying is, so long as this old relationship doesn't become an unhealthy obsession—either to hurt yourself or hurt another—then such sweet memories are like any other sweet memories. Their point is to make you smile and give you joy when you most need it—and to remind you that you have been loved and can be loved. That's a very important point, don't you think?

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Yes thirteen you have an excellent point there...but if it ended badly those lovely moments are muted/kind of tainted/not remembered for how lovely they were...guess its all about moving on, howver long it takes sometimes

The Lovers decision proves we can stick with it....

Puffette said:

Lovers is a card about choices: " i chose to date you because u have a nice hair or u smell good and i felt attracted" but what if tomorrow this person gets to meet another female that has more attractive traits,he chooses that one too no?

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Um, I think viewing the Lovers as this kind of choice misses the mark. It is a major card. So I really don't think reading it as a frivolous choice, a choice that we can easily renege on, is quite right. After all, as you say, in RW, the image shows the people as naked. So they metaphorically see EVERYTHING about each other—what's pretty and what's not pretty.

If you make a choice to go for someone warts and all, that's not a choice you've made as lightly as picking out a sweater, nor is it one you're likely to change your mind on easily. Especially if it involves some serious choices—like being with someone of a different religion and to be with them you're going to have to leave your family and community. Is THAT a decision that you would make, then change your mind about if you saw a prettier face? That, to me, is what the Lovers means when we say it's about "choice."

The 2/Cups, on the other hand, is a minor, and so the attraction we feel in that card could be based on something superficial, something that attracts us at that moment, but which we might change our minds about later. You say that they're looking into each other's cups, but that's like saying that you see the person drinking the same wine as you and, thus, you feel you have a lot in common. But what if, the next night, the person is drinking a hard liquor that your hate. Well, now you might reassess your initial impression. Is his love of that wine enough for you to overlook the fact that he also likes this despised liquor?

2/Cups gives us a basis for a connection, but it does't give us enough to maintain that connection. For that, we have to learn more. The Lovers exposes everything; our decision is perhaps more informed than we'd like, and difficult because of that, but the also means that whatever we decide, we're in it of the long haul. We prove we can stick with that decision simply by making it.

Puffette said:

Yes Lovers tends to sound positive regarding relationships and in terms of feelings and attraction but the 2 of cups to me meant a more stable connection in general(they look at each other cups) while the lovers in the picture show two people being naked apart of each other(multiple choices and more openess).
Lovers is a card about choices: " i chose to date you because u have a nice hair or u smell good and i felt attracted" but what if tomorrow this person gets to meet another female that has more attractive traits,he chooses that one too no?
2 of cups is about permanent encounters(its number two),it shows stability,equality,reciprocity. "I feel for you and you feel for me and so we have only us together as a whole".
The only card that for me means that two people are tied of each other and crazily in love is the devil card. Period.

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The devil is the lower echo of the lovers card. If you look at them both carefully you'll see the devil card lacks the top half of the lovers card.

What is balanced isn't necessarily stable....

Puffette said:

2 of cups is about permanent encounters(its number two),it shows stability,equality,reciprocity. "I feel for you and you feel for me and so we have only us together as a whole".

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Actually, the 2's aren't all that stable, numerological speaking. They're all about a balance of opposites that can only remain in balance for a limited time. I mean, would you sit on a two-legged chair? Three legged is stable, and four is super stable. 2 is merely balanced (we two-legged creatures are notoriously unstable, constantly having to balance ourselves to remain standing. Four-legged creatures don't have that problem ). It's why the 2-cards all indicate that you have to eventually make a decision, rather than trying to keep both those opposites constantly even and equal. Even 2/Cups, which I agree is the most stable of the 2's, requires that you decide to go onto 3 or back to 1. Because those two people can't remain forever on opposite sides of the table where they are even and equal.

Meanwhile, the Lovers is 6; 3+3 (very stable) and 2+2+2, the balance of the 2's with the stability of the 3's. True harmony. As for that word "choice"...we have words for certain cards that often give readers the wrong idea, even if they're not inaccurate. Like that 6/Cups, which everyone sees as "nostalgia." That's not wrong, but a better word for the card would be "comfort zone." We usually find comfort in things we know, from the past, like an old pair of slippers. But that doesn't mean the card has to be about something from the past. Just something or someone feels comfortable, known.

The Lovers card's word "choice" isn't inaccurate. But it seems to make a lot of readers think it means choosing between a pair of running shoes. That's not what the Lovers, a major card, is there for. That's what those minor "2's" are there for—to discuss decisions that you make early on about something, and may change your mind about later. A more accurate word for the Lovers would be "Soul's Choice." If you heard that term for the Lovers, I don't think you'd ever think someone could easily make that choice, nor easily change their minds about it once it was made.

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I don't see the Lovers like most other Tarot readers see it. I would prefer to see the 2 of Cups any day, but that usually happens in the beginning stages of a partnership. To me, the Lovers means "choice" or "temptation" (dating more than one person). There is another card (a major arcana card) that I use for "love" instead of the Lovers, but that's a secret I will keep to myself.

But to answer your question..I would prefer the 2 of Cups any day over the Lovers.

Puffette said:

Yes Lovers tends to sound positive regarding relationships and in terms of feelings and attraction but the 2 of cups to me meant a more stable connection in general(they look at each other cups) while the lovers in the picture show two people being naked apart of each other(multiple choices and more openess).
Lovers is a card about choices: " i chose to date you because u have a nice hair or u smell good and i felt attracted" but what if tomorrow this person gets to meet another female that has more attractive traits,he chooses that one too no?
2 of cups is about permanent encounters(its number two),it shows stability,equality,reciprocity. "I feel for you and you feel for me and so we have only us together as a whole".
The only card that for me means that two people are tied of each other and crazily in love is the devil card. Period.

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Wow! You are so good..excellent points. I agree with everything you have stated.

Thirteen said:

Um, I think viewing the Lovers as this kind of choice misses the mark. It is a major card. So I really don't think reading it as a frivolous choice, a choice that we can easily renege on, is quite right. After all, as you say, in RW, the image shows the people as naked. So they metaphorically see EVERYTHING about each other—what's pretty and what's not pretty.

If you make a choice to go for someone warts and all, that's not a choice you've made as lightly as picking out a sweater, nor is it one you're likely to change your mind on easily. Especially if it involves some serious choices—like being with someone of a different religion and to be with them you're going to have to leave your family and community. Is THAT a decision that you would make, then change your mind about if you saw a prettier face? That, to me, is what the Lovers means when we say it's about "choice."

The 2/Cups, on the other hand, is a minor, and so the attraction we feel in that card could be based on something superficial, something that attracts us at that moment, but which we might change our minds about later. You say that they're looking into each other's cups, but that's like saying that you see the person drinking the same wine as you and, thus, you feel you have a lot in common. But what if, the next night, the person is drinking a hard liquor that your hate. Well, now you might reassess your initial impression. Is his love of that wine enough for you to overlook the fact that he also likes this despised liquor?

2/Cups gives us a basis for a connection, but it does't give us enough to maintain that connection. For that, we have to learn more. The Lovers exposes everything; our decision is perhaps more informed than we'd like, and difficult because of that, but the also means that whatever we decide, we're in it of the long haul. We prove we can stick with that decision simply by making it.

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I understand your point but what im trying to say is: Every person is different and if some people choose with heart or with the head,other choose superficially. This is why i dont see this card as being so set in stone even though its a major one.
I dont interpret the Lovers as representing a solid couple.. do they have a ring on their fingers? Or do they just got married? We cannot figure out their status from the general meaning. They are not even close enough..she's looking at the sky and she's watching her but this doesnt say to me that the choice is coming from both partners.. There also other variations of this card in other decks in which there are represented 3 people in the picture(a male with 2 women or viceversa).. So when i see lovers i dont make a fuss.. I roll my eyes and i know that its not such a big deal..
I need other surrounding cards that can solidify to me the idea that two people are having the eyes only for each other and they are willing to spend the rest of their lives together.
If i get the lovers along other cards that can suggest that two people are having something seriou, then yes,this card becomes the impulse in their connection. It shows me then that there are feelings of love and chemistry. But as single card,lovers has not impressed me yet.
I had the lovers coming up for me time ago when i was online for a dating website.. i selected(chose) a guy out of all them and we began to talk and had a date..The choice was superficial from my side. I based my choice on his looks,we saw each other but there was nothing in the end.. The lovers card evaporated in this case,it had only briefly acted in my life at that time and showed me that it can speak about a decision of moment,something we choose for a short time. I liked his photo,chose him(like i chosed a pair of shoes) and thats it.

Yes they see everything about each other as the nakedness suggest but we cannot know how they feel inside exactly for each other.

I felt during these years that 2 of cups has given me more security in terms of romance, a sort of pact(may i call it like this) between two people that have the same desire of seeying each other,and moreover it inspires me respect since they are dressed. The guy in the 2 of cups reminds me of the knight of cups that got off his horse to cheer his girl.
This is why i trust more the 2 of cups(a minor) then the lovers.

Original title for the card was "Love"

AzulParadiso said:

There is another card (a major arcana card) that I use for "love"

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"Love" (L'Amore") was the earliest known version of this trump, and it depicted a marriage with cupid there to bless it. Later, it was changed to The Lover (L’Amoureux) which, got mistranslated into English as "the Lovers." Most of the images for the "Lover" card featured cupid shooting his arrow at a man who was gazing at a woman. Thus, the implication that THIS love was decreed by some higher power: either the gods or a psychic energy by which the man recognized his one-true-love. The Rider-Waite card goes for an Angel in this position, with Adam and Eve. Eve is literally made from Adam by god, and so to be whole he has to be with her. Thus, Heaven itself has made them for each other.

Getting back: this "choice" to follow that higher mandate (Love decreed by the gods), no matter what, certainly made a lot of sense among Medieval French courtiers. As I'm sure you're aware, marriages in those days were arranged for the sake of alliances or exchanging wealth. This meant that to be with the one you actually loved, you usually had to cheat on your spouse, possibly risking a great deal. So, that attraction had to be pretty powerful if you were going to make such a choice (or you had to be really stupid, but I'd read that as Lovers rx). All of which matches up with the choice and temptation interpretation that was sometimes assigned to this card (and which you hold), though not, as we see, being tempted by something frivolous, nor choosing lightly. To the contrary. Everything about the card suggests that the couple is tempted by an almost divine attraction, and choose to obey a divine mandate.

Which is to say, if we view the choice/temptation as fooling around, disregarding its original context (that this was often the only way for lovers to be together back when, and they usually risked a lot), we miss the true essence of the card (IMHO). Which is that "lovers" who have this higher, mightier attraction will make the greatest and grandest choices to be together. Like, risking death, the sometime penalty for adultery. That said, I know tarot readers have their own personal feelings and meanings about certain cards. If frivolous attraction is what this trump has come to mean to you and Puffette, and the 2/Cups pip is how your deck signals to you genuine love, then that, as they say, is that.

Thirteen said:

Actually, the 2's aren't all that stable, numerological speaking. They're all about a balance of opposites that can only remain in balance for a limited time. I mean, would you sit on a two-legged chair? Three legged is stable, and four is super stable. 2 is merely balanced (we two-legged creatures are notoriously unstable, constantly having to balance ourselves to remain standing. Four-legged creatures don't have that problem ). It's why the 2-cards all indicate that you have to eventually make a decision, rather than trying to keep both those opposites constantly even and equal. Even 2/Cups, which I agree is the most stable of the 2's, requires that you decide to go onto 3 or back to 1. Because those two people can't remain forever on opposite sides of the table where they are even and equal.

Meanwhile, the Lovers is 6; 3+3 (very stable) and 2+2+2, the balance of the 2's with the stability of the 3's. True harmony. As for that word "choice"...we have words for certain cards that often give readers the wrong idea, even if they're not inaccurate. Like that 6/Cups, which everyone sees as "nostalgia." That's not wrong, but a better word for the card would be "comfort zone." We usually find comfort in things we know, from the past, like an old pair of slippers. But that doesn't mean the card has to be about something from the past. Just something or someone feels comfortable, known.

The Lovers card's word "choice" isn't inaccurate. But it seems to make a lot of readers think it means choosing between a pair of running shoes. That's not what the Lovers, a major card, is there for. That's what those minor "2's" are there for—to discuss decisions that you make early on about something, and may change your mind about later. A more accurate word for the Lovers would be "Soul's Choice." If you heard that term for the Lovers, I don't think you'd ever think someone could easily make that choice, nor easily change their minds about it once it was made.

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Yes but 2 is formed by 1 +1 (both individuals) this is why i regard it as stability. Its number two and shows a sort of reciprocity,equality. They gather to form a pair.
In real life a couple is formed by 2 people(number 2). The unbalance comes when a third person interferes and breaks their union/stability.
6 of cups for me always meant the past,the memories and forgiveness and it leads me to the idea of love because we forgive someone out of love ..and the love can be of many types of course. To me the 6 of cups deal with the universal love(love for brothers,love for a place,for a person.. simpathy,childish feelings).
The lovers if i take it as a numerological idea.. then i could also say since the lovers is at plural that it might mean more partners(like a threesome for example).
Of course i respect everybody's oppinion and i like to learn new things but from what i experienced The lovers card has disapointed me while the 2 of cups teached me that it is more trustable.