firemaiden
Mandorla means almond, but the almond shape is used in the vesica pisces (the jesus fish sign) therefore by association it also means the jesus fish thing.
Marseilles Decks: Ace of Cups
Jewel-ry
Diana said:
I did a little research on the whole Joseph of Arimathea (sp) Holy Grail thing and have a little theory ... The Holy Grail is thought to be the cup that Jesus drank from at the last supper but also is the one used by said Joseph to catch his blood as as he hung on the cross. Could this red disk represent the blood in the cup? After all for it to be a cup, it must have a vessel that collects.
J
punchinella
Without running to look at my own decks (just going on the Camoin scan at the beginning of this thread) I have to say that you may have a point . . . If you take the whole top (the part that looks like a castle) right off this image, you have something that does actually look like a cup, filled with red liquid (wine or blood . . . in Christian tradition, these would amount more or less to the same thing wouldn't they--??)
Little Baron
Grimaud Ace
So many intelligent and thought out responses ......
and here's one that is not!, lol.
It's just the way that I am looking at the card and it is quite late so remember that when you read this, hehe.
When I look at the middle of the church/castle/building on this cup, I can see a woman that looks like the Virgin Mary wearing a crown. She has a slim face and her hair is covered.
I appologise for raising this in such an informative thread, but can't get the image from my mind when I look at the card now. Can anybody else see that?
Yaboot
So many intelligent and thought out responses ......
and here's one that is not!, lol.
It's just the way that I am looking at the card and it is quite late so remember that when you read this, hehe.
When I look at the middle of the church/castle/building on this cup, I can see a woman that looks like the Virgin Mary wearing a crown. She has a slim face and her hair is covered.
I appologise for raising this in such an informative thread, but can't get the image from my mind when I look at the card now. Can anybody else see that?
Yaboot
Rusty Neon
Re: Grimaud Ace
I took my Grimaud Ace of Cups out. I'm looking at the card, in the middle of the church/castle/building. I don't see any woman. Could you guide me a bit further? Thanks.
P.S.: Thanks for livening things up around the Marseilles board. It's become a bit quiet, relatively speaking.
Yaboot001 said:
I took my Grimaud Ace of Cups out. I'm looking at the card, in the middle of the church/castle/building. I don't see any woman. Could you guide me a bit further? Thanks.
P.S.: Thanks for livening things up around the Marseilles board. It's become a bit quiet, relatively speaking.
Little Baron
Hi Rusty
I think that this is probably something that just my 'mucked up' little mind can see and I am aware that I havn't found anything earth shattering ... I just saw it and wanted to share ... I will try and be a little more specific.
If you imagine that the larger middle section is the head down to the chest, which is all you can see of the woman. The red circle on the top is ther centre of her crown. She is wearing a headress like that of the Virgin Mary with a band on her forehead. The vertical line is showing the centre of her face, which is looking straignt forward. The darker areas show the hair under her headdress. The slanted lines show her body and her chest would be where the balnk triangle is.
I appreciate that this is not going to be seen by all, lol and once again, I apologise for the less useful observation I have brought to the thread.
Thanks for the kind words Rusty. I am enjoying reading through the information and having a great time with the Grimaud; its opening so many doors - this was just one of the more absurd ones.
Yaboot
I think that this is probably something that just my 'mucked up' little mind can see and I am aware that I havn't found anything earth shattering ... I just saw it and wanted to share ... I will try and be a little more specific.
If you imagine that the larger middle section is the head down to the chest, which is all you can see of the woman. The red circle on the top is ther centre of her crown. She is wearing a headress like that of the Virgin Mary with a band on her forehead. The vertical line is showing the centre of her face, which is looking straignt forward. The darker areas show the hair under her headdress. The slanted lines show her body and her chest would be where the balnk triangle is.
I appreciate that this is not going to be seen by all, lol and once again, I apologise for the less useful observation I have brought to the thread.
Thanks for the kind words Rusty. I am enjoying reading through the information and having a great time with the Grimaud; its opening so many doors - this was just one of the more absurd ones.
Yaboot
Rusty Neon
yaboot ... I'm beginning to see glimpses of what you're seeing. Maybe it'll take a few more viewings, scattered in time, for it to come to me. Preliminarily, it seems that I'm seeing the Papesse instead of the Virgin Mary.
Oh by the way, this is a fun exercise. I've discovered an [abstract ] bird in the Grimaud Ace of Cups card. I can see its yellow beak (underneath the top centre red circle) and its blue wing tips at the bottom left and bottom right corners of the building. The base of the cup is where its feet are. That's the bird that has made its way into the RWS Ace of Cups.
Oh by the way, this is a fun exercise. I've discovered an [abstract ] bird in the Grimaud Ace of Cups card. I can see its yellow beak (underneath the top centre red circle) and its blue wing tips at the bottom left and bottom right corners of the building. The base of the cup is where its feet are. That's the bird that has made its way into the RWS Ace of Cups.
Little Baron
I see your bird as well. If I have got it right, the beak, pointing downwards would be the face of the woman. It's point, being her chin. You are right, she does look more like the Papesse than the Virgin Mary. It's hard, at the moment, to see anything other than this woman, lol.
Best wishes
Yaboot
Best wishes
Yaboot
Parzival
Marseilles Decks: Ace of Cups
I like these close observations . When I observe and consider this image, It seems a mix of three elements, all referred to before: the castle, upper; the cup stem, lower: and the bird feathers, in the middle between the rising turrets above and the stem / base below ( there is a part-circle behind the center feathers). The bird feathers make a symmetric horizontal plane exactly dividing/ uniting the bottom of the base and the turret tops. Now, why the bird between heavenward castle-turrets and the foundation base? Why the blood-red oval where the bird's heart is hidden? Why, as noted, the possibility of blood contained by a vessel?
I like these close observations . When I observe and consider this image, It seems a mix of three elements, all referred to before: the castle, upper; the cup stem, lower: and the bird feathers, in the middle between the rising turrets above and the stem / base below ( there is a part-circle behind the center feathers). The bird feathers make a symmetric horizontal plane exactly dividing/ uniting the bottom of the base and the turret tops. Now, why the bird between heavenward castle-turrets and the foundation base? Why the blood-red oval where the bird's heart is hidden? Why, as noted, the possibility of blood contained by a vessel?
tmgrl2
Glad this thread was bumped. Since firemaiden posted the Camoin, I’m going to stick with that card, since I agree. It’s monstrous!
Since this thread was started before La Voie du Tarot by Jodorowsky was out, I thought I’d take quick glance at what he has to say about the Camoin As de Coupe.
This doesn’t mean I am taking the position of agreeing with what he says. I am merely translating some bits and pieces to add to what is already an excellent discussion.
I don’t see the face or a bird in the cup…but that’s me…I’ll keep trying.
In the book, he has a picture of the cup and the caption says:
Jodorowsky’s discussion is several pages long. The following is a translation summary:
The discussion begins with the base of the chalice which is flesh colored, therefore pure and virginal. This cup stands for emotional virginity that is intact, and for love that can be renewed over and over…like a well, but one whose source is timeless. As we move up the base, we find blue…indicating that in the flesh, the spirit develops and grows through suffering and experience.
The base could also represent a temple, a pyramid with three sides. The yellow and the orange on the sides of the base sets this cup always in the light of eternal life. The red pyramid on the base, is evocative of stability and permanence. The left side of the base, however, is shaded suggesting the reign of death …along with the three sides of the pyramid representing three aspects of existence: creation, life/preservation? and destruction.
The five petals of the reversed yellow flower, stand for the five senses, representing the evolution or process by which one intelligently takes in the trials of this incarnation in order to reach the summit of the Cup, where the Word of the Creator is represented here as in other places in the Tarot, by the point of a sword.
Above the yellow flower are 3 times 3 concentric circles The two outside ones correspond to the past and the future, colored green to represent hope and remembrance. The red concentric circles represent the present, with its pure experience in the moment.
There are three circles in each circle with the most exterior one representing the intellectual, the second standing for the emotional and the central circle, the sexual life.
If one chooses, the three within the three could also stand for the body, soul and spirit.
In continuing the climb toward the summit of the cup, one sees a red half-circle with horizontal rays. Complete or total love works first in darkness, then becomes conscious and is composed of love of self which we project outward, then, as love of other, love of the universe and divine love. This humble, yet immense feeling (love) holds up the body of the cathedral. All of human wisdom rests within love. As Walt Whitman says,” He who spends a life without love, walks already buried toward his own funeral.”
The three blue palm leaves have, respectively, five, seven and four points. Add these and we have XVI, La Maison Dieu. The blue leaves call upon pure intuition to communicate with the spiritual experience on the horizon…one of suffering. The spirit will transcend this suffering and arrive in the white light of purity that surrounds the cup with an atmosphere of purification.
This ordinary cup, this simple temple, pours of itself into the world. At the root of love, there is the desire to give all one has gained.
That’s the sum of what Jodorowsky has to say about As de Coupe and the designs and colors used by Camoin.
terri
Since this thread was started before La Voie du Tarot by Jodorowsky was out, I thought I’d take quick glance at what he has to say about the Camoin As de Coupe.
This doesn’t mean I am taking the position of agreeing with what he says. I am merely translating some bits and pieces to add to what is already an excellent discussion.
I don’t see the face or a bird in the cup…but that’s me…I’ll keep trying.
In the book, he has a picture of the cup and the caption says:
Jodorowsky’s discussion is several pages long. The following is a translation summary:
The discussion begins with the base of the chalice which is flesh colored, therefore pure and virginal. This cup stands for emotional virginity that is intact, and for love that can be renewed over and over…like a well, but one whose source is timeless. As we move up the base, we find blue…indicating that in the flesh, the spirit develops and grows through suffering and experience.
The base could also represent a temple, a pyramid with three sides. The yellow and the orange on the sides of the base sets this cup always in the light of eternal life. The red pyramid on the base, is evocative of stability and permanence. The left side of the base, however, is shaded suggesting the reign of death …along with the three sides of the pyramid representing three aspects of existence: creation, life/preservation? and destruction.
The five petals of the reversed yellow flower, stand for the five senses, representing the evolution or process by which one intelligently takes in the trials of this incarnation in order to reach the summit of the Cup, where the Word of the Creator is represented here as in other places in the Tarot, by the point of a sword.
Above the yellow flower are 3 times 3 concentric circles The two outside ones correspond to the past and the future, colored green to represent hope and remembrance. The red concentric circles represent the present, with its pure experience in the moment.
There are three circles in each circle with the most exterior one representing the intellectual, the second standing for the emotional and the central circle, the sexual life.
If one chooses, the three within the three could also stand for the body, soul and spirit.
In continuing the climb toward the summit of the cup, one sees a red half-circle with horizontal rays. Complete or total love works first in darkness, then becomes conscious and is composed of love of self which we project outward, then, as love of other, love of the universe and divine love. This humble, yet immense feeling (love) holds up the body of the cathedral. All of human wisdom rests within love. As Walt Whitman says,” He who spends a life without love, walks already buried toward his own funeral.”
The three blue palm leaves have, respectively, five, seven and four points. Add these and we have XVI, La Maison Dieu. The blue leaves call upon pure intuition to communicate with the spiritual experience on the horizon…one of suffering. The spirit will transcend this suffering and arrive in the white light of purity that surrounds the cup with an atmosphere of purification.
This ordinary cup, this simple temple, pours of itself into the world. At the root of love, there is the desire to give all one has gained.
That’s the sum of what Jodorowsky has to say about As de Coupe and the designs and colors used by Camoin.
terri
