Diana
edited
XI - La Force
catboxer
Diana:
I called up the Camoin version of the card and counted six toes. Hmmm...is the Justice lady from the Appalachian region, perhaps?
But I couldn't make out the mask, unless she's wearing an over-the-top type of mask, like Rat Chicken does at http://www.bullseyeart.com/classic2/ratchicken/ratchicken1.html
Dave
I called up the Camoin version of the card and counted six toes. Hmmm...is the Justice lady from the Appalachian region, perhaps?
But I couldn't make out the mask, unless she's wearing an over-the-top type of mask, like Rat Chicken does at http://www.bullseyeart.com/classic2/ratchicken/ratchicken1.html
Dave
jmd
Thank-you Diana.
The various number of toes I had noted before, but that the face could be viewed as a mask I had not. The number of toes, of course, is not consistent with all Marseilles decks, and in some these are not even visible.
With regards to the 'mask', part of the reason this appears more apparent in the Grimaud deck is because of the Marteau colouration - one I am not, personally, fondest of.
Connecting this card with the Magician is, as far as I am concerned, quite the correct pairing!
For people who do not use a Marseilles type deck, it may also be useful to note the orientation of the Lady and the animal (whether it be a Lion or some other 'beast').
Attached is the 1930s colouration by Marteau of the Grimaud deck.
The various number of toes I had noted before, but that the face could be viewed as a mask I had not. The number of toes, of course, is not consistent with all Marseilles decks, and in some these are not even visible.
With regards to the 'mask', part of the reason this appears more apparent in the Grimaud deck is because of the Marteau colouration - one I am not, personally, fondest of.
Connecting this card with the Magician is, as far as I am concerned, quite the correct pairing!
For people who do not use a Marseilles type deck, it may also be useful to note the orientation of the Lady and the animal (whether it be a Lion or some other 'beast').
Attached is the 1930s colouration by Marteau of the Grimaud deck.
Attachments
Diana
edited
jmd
Here are two more photos from Karen (baba-prague) - and again request that she be contacted for permission to further usage.
Each is a carving of Samson (see the first post). The first I post is wooden.
What seems apparent is that the lack of lions in the area resulted in deformed depictions. If one compares each of these lions to the careful detailing of Samson himself, it's as if the lion is a large not-too-specific beast.
Here again, one can see the relationship of this depiction to some unclear early woodcuts - unclear, in my opinion, not due to poor craftsmanship (though this would only have added), but to unfamiliarity with such a powerful beast (probably described as a wild cat the size of - or even, God forbid, larger than a wolf!).
Each is a carving of Samson (see the first post). The first I post is wooden.
What seems apparent is that the lack of lions in the area resulted in deformed depictions. If one compares each of these lions to the careful detailing of Samson himself, it's as if the lion is a large not-too-specific beast.
Here again, one can see the relationship of this depiction to some unclear early woodcuts - unclear, in my opinion, not due to poor craftsmanship (though this would only have added), but to unfamiliarity with such a powerful beast (probably described as a wild cat the size of - or even, God forbid, larger than a wolf!).
Attachments
jmd
baba-prague
Hi,
I should say of course that we will give permission for these to be used sensibly, but wanted to put the "copyright" type warning on to them as in many cases we were given permission to photograph (especially in the Wallenstein) by kind people who might be offended if we don't control how the images are used. If you need them for education/research, no problem, just ask!
Okay, with that out of the way, I have to say that when we took these photos we did not think much about their source (we took them some time ago) so my information is limited. Currently we are being much more careful about collecting all the information we can. The stone carving is in the Lapidarium (Museum of sculptures) in Prague. It is a little over half life-size.
The wooden sculpture is in a very odd place, actually an alleyway (now mostly full of small shops) behind the Tyn cathedral. In other words, you have to imagine this just sitting in what is more or less a medieval shopping mall (remember Prague is absolutely full of wonderful things so many are not protected in museums). It is smaller, maybe about a quarter life-sized. The "lion" is very odd - rather reptilian, but as always it's hard to know if this was deliberate or just that the sculptor had never seem a lion (exotic animals like lions and elephants tended to be drawn vaguely!)
I will take another look at the wooden sculpture next time I'm in that part of town and try to work out more.
I should say of course that we will give permission for these to be used sensibly, but wanted to put the "copyright" type warning on to them as in many cases we were given permission to photograph (especially in the Wallenstein) by kind people who might be offended if we don't control how the images are used. If you need them for education/research, no problem, just ask!
Okay, with that out of the way, I have to say that when we took these photos we did not think much about their source (we took them some time ago) so my information is limited. Currently we are being much more careful about collecting all the information we can. The stone carving is in the Lapidarium (Museum of sculptures) in Prague. It is a little over half life-size.
The wooden sculpture is in a very odd place, actually an alleyway (now mostly full of small shops) behind the Tyn cathedral. In other words, you have to imagine this just sitting in what is more or less a medieval shopping mall (remember Prague is absolutely full of wonderful things so many are not protected in museums). It is smaller, maybe about a quarter life-sized. The "lion" is very odd - rather reptilian, but as always it's hard to know if this was deliberate or just that the sculptor had never seem a lion (exotic animals like lions and elephants tended to be drawn vaguely!)
I will take another look at the wooden sculpture next time I'm in that part of town and try to work out more.
temperlyne
hi guys, I don't post is this perticular corner of the forum often but JMD suggested I did.
He was trying to solve my puzle in the what deck am I thread and one of the clues I gave was Potnia Theron.
Potnia theron is an aspect of the goddes artemis. She represents the mistress of the wild beasts, she controls the wild nature. And isn't that what the strenght card is about? Take a look at the way she is portrayd:
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/classicalarch/images3/francoispotnia.jpg
a woman flanked by wild beasts. She keeps the dog from tearing up the deer. A nice display of strenght. The strenght of the woman keeps the balance between dog and deer, life and death, wild and tame.
It's just a different and ancient image of the same archetype. The female strenght mastering the uncontrolled forces of the dark and the wild.
He was trying to solve my puzle in the what deck am I thread and one of the clues I gave was Potnia Theron.
Potnia theron is an aspect of the goddes artemis. She represents the mistress of the wild beasts, she controls the wild nature. And isn't that what the strenght card is about? Take a look at the way she is portrayd:
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/classicalarch/images3/francoispotnia.jpg
a woman flanked by wild beasts. She keeps the dog from tearing up the deer. A nice display of strenght. The strenght of the woman keeps the balance between dog and deer, life and death, wild and tame.
It's just a different and ancient image of the same archetype. The female strenght mastering the uncontrolled forces of the dark and the wild.
firemaiden
Artemis and Lion - Marseilles -
Could Mrs. Strength be the symbol of the town of Marseille? Marseilles is in the "Lion Gulf" - golfe du lion.
Ancient coins minted from Marseilles (Massalia) depict Artemis on one side, and a lion on the other. It seems basically the same image, with few variations was used in Marseilles (Massalia) from the 6th century BC through the 1st century BC. That's a lot of centuries for one image to serve as an emblem on a city's coinage!!
Please have a look:
Artemis and lion (close up) 2nd Century BC. from website Ancient coinage of Massalia
lion with gaping mouth 6th-5th century BC.
Head of Artemis and lion marching right 2nd part of 3rd century BC from Greek coins
For more explanation of the history of these coins, see Ancient coins of Gallia
Could Mrs. Strength be the symbol of the town of Marseille? Marseilles is in the "Lion Gulf" - golfe du lion.
Ancient coins minted from Marseilles (Massalia) depict Artemis on one side, and a lion on the other. It seems basically the same image, with few variations was used in Marseilles (Massalia) from the 6th century BC through the 1st century BC. That's a lot of centuries for one image to serve as an emblem on a city's coinage!!
Please have a look:
Artemis and lion (close up) 2nd Century BC. from website Ancient coinage of Massalia
lion with gaping mouth 6th-5th century BC.
Head of Artemis and lion marching right 2nd part of 3rd century BC from Greek coins
For more explanation of the history of these coins, see Ancient coins of Gallia
moon_mermaid
Question about the hat
I have been re-reading these threads from time to time, fasicinating.
Tonight, I have Kris Hadar's deck with me. I have some questions about the hat:
1) There is a pattern like fish scales on the left section of her hat. What is that?
2) There are five triangles on her hat. Is that a crown?
3) Looking at the coloring of hat, the hat looks like a lizard or maybe a salamander sitting on her head!! (maybe it is just late at night)
Upward triangle associate with fire and accending to heaven. If that is a salamander, fire again. Maybe a trancending of fire energy from material (lion) to spiritual (hat). Or a symbol of purification by fire?
Or maybe I am just thinking too much?
I have been re-reading these threads from time to time, fasicinating.
Tonight, I have Kris Hadar's deck with me. I have some questions about the hat:
1) There is a pattern like fish scales on the left section of her hat. What is that?
2) There are five triangles on her hat. Is that a crown?
3) Looking at the coloring of hat, the hat looks like a lizard or maybe a salamander sitting on her head!! (maybe it is just late at night)
Upward triangle associate with fire and accending to heaven. If that is a salamander, fire again. Maybe a trancending of fire energy from material (lion) to spiritual (hat). Or a symbol of purification by fire?
Or maybe I am just thinking too much?
